S1:E1 - Introduction
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 1
"Introduction"
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode one of the Co -Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting education for parents going through divorce or separation. And my name is Jaimie, and today I'm here with Dr. Donald Gordon, our executive director and founder of the company. And today we will be introducing you to his background and inspiration behind starting the company. So, Dr. Don, why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your experience and credentials?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: I'm a father of two, grandfather of two. I got my doctorate in psychology and with an emphasis on child clinical psychology and family psychology. And I spent my career being a professor of psychology at Emory University and Ohio University. Throughout that time, I was training doctoral students to work with children and families and to help kids with behavior problems.
And then I started focusing on families of divorce and training doctoral students to work with those families. I also trained students in doing family therapy with families of delinquents. And that led me into the current work with divorcing parents. - And we do know that you're considered one of the top experts in the field of parents and children.
>> Jaimie: What made you start the Center for Divorce Education and Parenting classes?
>> Dr. Don: Well, when I was doing my work with delinquents and their families, we were doing home based family therapy. I noticed that in almost all of these families, the biological father wasn't present. They had gone through a divorce or separation and the father wasn't having any regular contact with the kids.
And especially teen boys, that was really harmful. And sometimes the mom would have a live-in boyfriend. Sometimes she'd be remarried with a stepfather, but there was just not much contact with a biological father.
So I did some reading and the research literature, and it looked like that with a big risk factor for delinquency was the child not having contact with one of their parents, usually the father. I figure, okay, how could we keep fathers involved after the parents separate? I wasn't optimistic that I could keep people married or in a relationship. I'd gone through two divorces and I wasn't really optimistic that it could be easily done. And so I figure, okay, let's figure out a way to keep both parents involved with the kids after they separate.
And that would really reduce kids' risk for problems, including delinquency. Then around that same time, I went through a really difficult divorce myself. And it was a really long-term, high-conflict divorce. So I wanted to have shared parenting or joint custody and the court, the judge didn't believe in that. And in those days, the judges almost automatically gave custody to the mom, regardless of the competence of each parent. And that really offended me. And I had a colleague, Jack Arbuthnott, who was also working with me in the area of delinquency. And he went through a divorce around the same time too. But his ex -wife agreed to joint custody and they really cooperated very well and they shared their child together without conflict.
And I was really impressed with that. And so he and I talked together about, how do we get parents to have the kind of divorce he had and not have the kind of divorce I had? And that's when we decided we would develop a divorce education program to teach parents about how to have a divorce that didn't harm the children.
That's what caused us to develop this program. At the time we developed it, there were virtually no programs like this in the country. This is around 1990, 1991. And it just was just not done. And then we started advertising this program. We focused on the ways that parents put their children in the middle of the conflict without being aware of it.
Because our research had shown that that was really harmful for kids, and that the most harmful aspect of divorce was being put in the middle of the parents' conflict and where the child had to choose which parent to be loyal to and just tore them apart.
So we focused the course material like a laser on that issue. And we filmed scenes of parents putting the kids in the middle. And then we filmed scenes of parents using skills to not do that.
So that was our idea to try to focus closely on the most harmful aspects of divorce. And we did a lot of video showing those scenes. And then after a while, that spread. And by the late 1990s, most courts in the country were requiring parents to get co -parent education. That idea took off with judges. They saw the benefit of parents getting education.
>> Jaimie: Right, right. And especially with video scenes of real -life type situations that most parents get stuck in. Yes. Would you say after you went through your divorce that the courts are better about joint custody or having fathers involved?
>> Dr. Don: Oh, definitely. There's been a big change. It's still not equal. In many courts, there's still a preference for maternal custody. But it's changed dramatically. Particularly as there are more younger judges, more women judges, they seem to be more open to both parents being involved with their children and gender roles have changed over the last 20 years. And you have a lot more men going into a relationship expecting to be heavily involved with parenting. And the mothers are looking for men who will be involved with parenting. So that's helped change that too.
>> Jaimie: Some states require parent education and others don't. So it does differ based on state as far as the court systems and how all of that works too, right?
>> Dr. Don: Yes, and it's frustrating to see large states like New York and California that when you get a divorce, you're not required to do co-parent education. Some individual judges may require that, but statewide they're not doing it. So it's a real pity because divorce is the second most stressful life event that people go through. And to go through that without any guidance doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
People really need guidance going through something that's that stressful. 'Cause for most people, this is the first time they've gotten a divorce and they don't know how to deal with it. And they're kind of freaked out.
They're in a fight or flight mode and they're not showing their best, especially in front of their children. And they can be taught how to do that, how to get themselves out of fight or flight mode and how to use skills to resolve their problems. They learn to do that. But without education, they're probably not gonna learn to do that.
>> Jaimie: Right, would you say, I mean, when you developed the program, did you expect that we would have, what are we at, about 5,000 parents a month now taking the program?
>> Dr. Don: I think initially we saw it grow. I actually expected it would be greater because there's not very many programs out there that teach skills and do it in a way with really high quality video that has an emotional impact and is personally relevant.
So they're mostly just giving parents information. For those of you who've gone to an interesting talk or lecture with interesting information a week or so later, you don't remember much of it. So I think if they're not remembering the information, what's the point? We need to give them new skills that they incorporate into their daily lives that change their behavior and that's what benefits parents and kids, not just giving them information. So I was expecting that since our program is doing a really good job of teaching skills, that it would be widely used, but it is not as widely used as I think it should be.
>> Jaimie: Right, and that also has a little bit to do with those court systems you were talking about earlier and requiring parent education or not. Obviously, yes, the other programs that may not benefit parents quite as much too.
The Children in Between Online program also has won awards.
>> Dr. Don: Yes, we've gotten Telly awards for educational video and W3 awards for animation and video. The video production is very high quality. We spent a lot of money to produce something that was really high quality because we wanted parents to look at it and to have an emotional impact on them. We wanted them to look at the scenes and say, "Yes, that's me." Yeah, and it benefits them. And they benefit from that. And then when they identify with the parents in the scenes making these mistakes, like putting the kids in the middle, having conflict in front of the kids, then they pay attention to how to solve that problem.
And then we show parents using good skills to help resolve the conflict, to move them forward in the conversation and to calm themselves down. Having a high quality video makes that possible. And I think it's well worth doing because you only get parents for a brief amount of time, four hours, and you really have to make an impression in that four hours for them to carry forward with something after they finish the program that they can use in their daily lives.
>> Jaimie: Right. And it obviously is even better that you have had experience there. You've had the education, and you developed a wonderful program to help parents.
So thank you for sharing, Dr. Don. In our next few episodes, we will be going over some parent feedback that we've had on our programs. We'll bring Dr. Don back on to give his professional expertise on the subjects. Whether you are going through divorce or separation, we do encourage you to take a look at our programs. Thank you.
Join Dr. Donald Gordon and co-host Jaimie MacArthur as they introduce “Dr. Don’s” credentials and background, the founding of The Center for Divorce Education, and some interesting facts about children and divorce.
S1:E2 - Lying to Your Child
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 2
“Lying to Your Child”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to the Co -Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents, and today I have my colleague Chelsea with me, and we're going to be going over some feedback that we have recently received from a parent who took our program. Today's subject is, "What do you do if your co-parent is lying to your children?" I'm going to assume that this is referring to co-parent lying about the other parent to their children, and we will bring on Dr. Don here in a little while, and he can give us his professional feedback on the subject. But what are your thoughts on this, Chelsea, about lying to your children?
>> Chelsea: My thoughts as a mother immediately go to one of two situations, either somebody lacks integrity to which I would highly recommend professional help. However, I think that there is a larger part of the parenting community that may feel like their intentions behind a lie are good, and therefore they justify it. I think in those situations, it's coming from a place of protectiveness, which is an instinct. But truth be told, how we handle that instinct is truly an opportunity for us to represent ourselves and show our children who are watching us how to handle big, powerful emotions. We can also use that as a challenge. It's hard, but it's not impossible.
>> Jaimie: Right. What do you mean by lying with good intentions?
>> Chelsea: Let's say a parent doesn't show up for their child's graduation, but they promised that they would. The child would be heartbroken and crushed, and the other parent that did show up may feel stuck covering for them. That's where I could imagine a lie coming in to protect the child might be relevant. In situations like that, I'd say don't lie, because that reflects poorly on you. You have to be a healthy role model, and that's your responsibility, and you can really only control yourself. So it is okay to admit that you don't have all the right answers. It is enough to just let them feel what they need to feel and just be there.
>> Jaimie: Right. No, I agree. And we do know that our program and workbooks actually outline what may be appropriate to share with your children as well. So you obviously wouldn't want to share the same things with a six year old as you would with a 15 year old, right? Because they're at different levels and they wouldn't understand the same things. In my opinion, usually a coping mechanism, lying to your children because you're trying to take your hurt feelings and put it on the other parent.
And maybe not in all cases, but that definitely is, we see that a lot with co-parenting, putting your child in a loyalty bind. So I will actually go over a few points from our What About the Children? workbook. The children are not responsible for the divorce and separation, obviously. You will always still love them, both parents. They still have a family, including both parents, and explain who they likely will be living with as far as grandparents, moving, that type of situation. What routines will be the same and what will change as far as the bedtime activities, school, what parent is taking them where and when, and let them express their feelings and concerns about the divorce and separation as best as you can. But at no point in this entire book does it say to lie to your children, especially when it's concerning the other parent.
>> Chelsea: Exactly. And I love those points from the workbook because there's this common misconception that divorce or separation is the end of a family. It does feel that way, but really it's just the start of something new. It's okay that it looks different than what you thought it should look like. And I think that it's really important, because of those points, to focus on not putting our kids in a position where they have to play both sides or pick and decipher what's real and what's a lie. We don't want to manipulate our children, and that's really important to teach them to not be that kind of a person.
>> Jaimie: Right. Kids are sponges, so you're basically their role model. And when you lie to them, especially about the other parent, they also feel what both parents feel, usually. So let's say I'm telling my child, “Your dad is stupid,” or, “Your mom is stupid.” Well, my child relates also with that other parent. So I'm telling my child, hey, this is part of you as well. And it can definitely backfire later on. So I feel like this is more likely to happen also with teenagers, because with teenagers, they usually have a better understanding of what is going on, the divorce and separation, and they're more likely to pick sides between mom and dad. That really can, in the end, put your child in a situation with feelings that they're not ready for.
>>Chelsea: With the children, especially of that age, you're dealing with kids who are much more cognizant of what's going on around them, but they are still children, so they only know so much, they only know what they're taught, and if you keep them in the dark on certain things, and you only show them what you want them to know, they're not stupid, they'll pick up on what's between the lines, but they're not going to fully understand the situation. So it's something that you want to be very mindful of along the way, because like you said earlier, they will resonate with that.
>>Jaimie: What I will do is go ahead and bring on Dr. Don, our expert here, and see what he has to say about the subject. Dr. Don, what is your professional opinion about lying to your children?
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: When you're in that situation, you need to search what your intentions are. What are you trying to accomplish? If you're trying to make the other parent look bad, and it's a common temptation when you're going through a contentious divorce or separation, that's going to put your child in a bad situation to making the other parent look bad, so look at your intentions, and notice if you're in a fight or flight mode. If you're in a fight or flight mode, that means part of your brain, the amygdala, is causing you to either attack or counterattack or flee, and you're not able to attune to your child's emotions when you're in that fight or flight mode. So you're not able to imagine how your child is going to react to what you're telling them about the other parent lying. So it's necessary to calm yourself down before you say anything, and we teach parents how to do that with the breathing, with thinking of some happy memories, with being grateful for certain things, to get yourself calmed down.
Then what you can do is to tell your child that the other parent must have forgotten their event. Sometimes their other parent over-schedules, they get too committed to something else and simply forget. That's a much easier piece of information for the child to handle than to think the child that parent intentionally chose to be with, say, a date than with them at their special event.
>> Jaimie: Right, right. And I'm not sure of what this parent that gave us this feedback, their specific situation was, but like you said, lying with certain intentions is the point. So if your child is, let's say they do have an event and you have to miss the event because you're at work or you had a prior commitment that you have to go to. And then the other parent goes to the child and says, "Oh, well, your mom or dad is on a date." And that's why they couldn't make it, which is lying to the child. Their intentions are negative. They are purposely making that other parent look bad to the child, which is the issue.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, in this situation, a couple of skills that would be useful is don't assume motives on the other part of the other person. So consider what are some other motives besides the negative ones you assumed? And there's some maybe benign or even positive motives. Once you make yourself aware that there are other motives for the other parent's behavior, then you're less likely to stick with a bad motive.
Another important skill is “stop, look, and listen,” is to stop yourself from reacting defensively and with anger and doing that by taking some deep breaths, pausing, thinking of a good memory. So you stop yourself, then you look at all your options for responding. Don't just go with the first one that comes to mind because you're in a fight or flight mode. What are the different ways you can respond to this situation? And then finally, listen to your better nature. Show the better side of yourself when you respond, instead of showing the worst side of yourself because you're in a fight or flight mode.
>>Jaimie: Right, right. No, that makes perfect sense. And we appreciate your feedback here today, Don. Whether you are looking for a divorce, have already been divorced or are thinking about divorce or separation, the skills do work and they do help. And we encourage you to tune in next time. Thank you.
In this episode, co-hosts Jaimie MacArthur and Chelsea Murry discuss the implications of lying to your children about your co-parent, and bring on Dr. Don to introduce skills for avoiding this common problem for divorcing and separating parents.
S1:E3 - Parent Dropout After Divorce or Separation
What happens when one parent drops out of a child’s life after a divorce or separation? Co-hosts Jaimie and Chelsea discuss some of the reasons for parents dropping out, and Dr. Don gives suggestions for co-parents navigating this difficult transition.
S1:E4 - Holiday Tips for Co-Parents
The holidays are important and stressful times for families going through separation and divorce. How do you shield kids from stress? In this episode, Dr. Don gives some helpful tips for navigating the holidays as co-parents. Visit https://divorce-education.com/resources/ for more.
S1:E5 - Expressing Feelings and Kids' Mental Health
How can parents and professionals help reduce the effects of the mental health crisis in today’s kids? Dr. Don gives tips on kids expressing and understanding feelings, and introduces the latest program from The Center for Divorce Education, Children in Between: For Kids.
S1:E6 - Grandparents
Grandparents play an important role in the raising of healthy kids, especially in co-parenting situations. Grandparents can help reduce the stress on parents during and after divorce and separation. Parents and grandparents can learn new skills by using the https://parentingwisely.com/ programs.
S1:E7 - Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) Score
An Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) score is an inventory of different types of abuse, neglect, and other indicators of childhood trauma. A high ACE score increases your risk for problems later in life. Get your ACE Score HERE.
CDE's Children in Between is a skills based program that helps children and parents deal with the children's reactions to divorce. This is the most highly recommended online parenting class in the United States.
The program is based on research that identifies the most common and stressful loyalty conflicts experienced by children of divorce.
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