Latest Episode: S2:E10
Creating Holiday Parenting Plans that Work for Everyone
In this episode, we dive into the importance of creating clear holiday parenting plans for separated families. We give practical tips for structuring plans to minimize misunderstandings, and Dr. Gordon discusses how holiday transitions affect children emotionally. Learn strategies for setting flexible yet organized schedules, prioritizing your child’s well-being, and keeping open communication with your co-parent to ensure a peaceful holiday season. Whether you’re newly separated or looking to refine your approach, this episode provides guidance for a harmonious holiday experience.
S1:E1 - Introduction
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 1
"Introduction"
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode one of the Co -Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting education for parents going through divorce or separation. And my name is Jaimie, and today I'm here with Dr. Donald Gordon, our executive director and founder of the company. And today we will be introducing you to his background and inspiration behind starting the company. So, Dr. Don, why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your experience and credentials?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: I'm a father of two, grandfather of two. I got my doctorate in psychology and with an emphasis on child clinical psychology and family psychology. And I spent my career being a professor of psychology at Emory University and Ohio University. Throughout that time, I was training doctoral students to work with children and families and to help kids with behavior problems.
And then I started focusing on families of divorce and training doctoral students to work with those families. I also trained students in doing family therapy with families of delinquents. And that led me into the current work with divorcing parents. - And we do know that you're considered one of the top experts in the field of parents and children.
>> Jaimie: What made you start the Center for Divorce Education and Parenting classes?
>> Dr. Don: Well, when I was doing my work with delinquents and their families, we were doing home based family therapy. I noticed that in almost all of these families, the biological father wasn't present. They had gone through a divorce or separation and the father wasn't having any regular contact with the kids.
And especially teen boys, that was really harmful. And sometimes the mom would have a live-in boyfriend. Sometimes she'd be remarried with a stepfather, but there was just not much contact with a biological father.
So I did some reading and the research literature, and it looked like that with a big risk factor for delinquency was the child not having contact with one of their parents, usually the father. I figure, okay, how could we keep fathers involved after the parents separate? I wasn't optimistic that I could keep people married or in a relationship. I'd gone through two divorces and I wasn't really optimistic that it could be easily done. And so I figure, okay, let's figure out a way to keep both parents involved with the kids after they separate.
And that would really reduce kids' risk for problems, including delinquency. Then around that same time, I went through a really difficult divorce myself. And it was a really long-term, high-conflict divorce. So I wanted to have shared parenting or joint custody and the court, the judge didn't believe in that. And in those days, the judges almost automatically gave custody to the mom, regardless of the competence of each parent. And that really offended me. And I had a colleague, Jack Arbuthnott, who was also working with me in the area of delinquency. And he went through a divorce around the same time too. But his ex -wife agreed to joint custody and they really cooperated very well and they shared their child together without conflict.
And I was really impressed with that. And so he and I talked together about, how do we get parents to have the kind of divorce he had and not have the kind of divorce I had? And that's when we decided we would develop a divorce education program to teach parents about how to have a divorce that didn't harm the children.
That's what caused us to develop this program. At the time we developed it, there were virtually no programs like this in the country. This is around 1990, 1991. And it just was just not done. And then we started advertising this program. We focused on the ways that parents put their children in the middle of the conflict without being aware of it.
Because our research had shown that that was really harmful for kids, and that the most harmful aspect of divorce was being put in the middle of the parents' conflict and where the child had to choose which parent to be loyal to and just tore them apart.
So we focused the course material like a laser on that issue. And we filmed scenes of parents putting the kids in the middle. And then we filmed scenes of parents using skills to not do that.
So that was our idea to try to focus closely on the most harmful aspects of divorce. And we did a lot of video showing those scenes. And then after a while, that spread. And by the late 1990s, most courts in the country were requiring parents to get co -parent education. That idea took off with judges. They saw the benefit of parents getting education.
>> Jaimie: Right, right. And especially with video scenes of real -life type situations that most parents get stuck in. Yes. Would you say after you went through your divorce that the courts are better about joint custody or having fathers involved?
>> Dr. Don: Oh, definitely. There's been a big change. It's still not equal. In many courts, there's still a preference for maternal custody. But it's changed dramatically. Particularly as there are more younger judges, more women judges, they seem to be more open to both parents being involved with their children and gender roles have changed over the last 20 years. And you have a lot more men going into a relationship expecting to be heavily involved with parenting. And the mothers are looking for men who will be involved with parenting. So that's helped change that too.
>> Jaimie: Some states require parent education and others don't. So it does differ based on state as far as the court systems and how all of that works too, right?
>> Dr. Don: Yes, and it's frustrating to see large states like New York and California that when you get a divorce, you're not required to do co-parent education. Some individual judges may require that, but statewide they're not doing it. So it's a real pity because divorce is the second most stressful life event that people go through. And to go through that without any guidance doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
People really need guidance going through something that's that stressful. 'Cause for most people, this is the first time they've gotten a divorce and they don't know how to deal with it. And they're kind of freaked out.
They're in a fight or flight mode and they're not showing their best, especially in front of their children. And they can be taught how to do that, how to get themselves out of fight or flight mode and how to use skills to resolve their problems. They learn to do that. But without education, they're probably not gonna learn to do that.
>> Jaimie: Right, would you say, I mean, when you developed the program, did you expect that we would have, what are we at, about 5,000 parents a month now taking the program?
>> Dr. Don: I think initially we saw it grow. I actually expected it would be greater because there's not very many programs out there that teach skills and do it in a way with really high quality video that has an emotional impact and is personally relevant.
So they're mostly just giving parents information. For those of you who've gone to an interesting talk or lecture with interesting information a week or so later, you don't remember much of it. So I think if they're not remembering the information, what's the point? We need to give them new skills that they incorporate into their daily lives that change their behavior and that's what benefits parents and kids, not just giving them information. So I was expecting that since our program is doing a really good job of teaching skills, that it would be widely used, but it is not as widely used as I think it should be.
>> Jaimie: Right, and that also has a little bit to do with those court systems you were talking about earlier and requiring parent education or not. Obviously, yes, the other programs that may not benefit parents quite as much too.
The Children in Between Online program also has won awards.
>> Dr. Don: Yes, we've gotten Telly awards for educational video and W3 awards for animation and video. The video production is very high quality. We spent a lot of money to produce something that was really high quality because we wanted parents to look at it and to have an emotional impact on them. We wanted them to look at the scenes and say, "Yes, that's me." Yeah, and it benefits them. And they benefit from that. And then when they identify with the parents in the scenes making these mistakes, like putting the kids in the middle, having conflict in front of the kids, then they pay attention to how to solve that problem.
And then we show parents using good skills to help resolve the conflict, to move them forward in the conversation and to calm themselves down. Having a high quality video makes that possible. And I think it's well worth doing because you only get parents for a brief amount of time, four hours, and you really have to make an impression in that four hours for them to carry forward with something after they finish the program that they can use in their daily lives.
>> Jaimie: Right. And it obviously is even better that you have had experience there. You've had the education, and you developed a wonderful program to help parents.
So thank you for sharing, Dr. Don. In our next few episodes, we will be going over some parent feedback that we've had on our programs. We'll bring Dr. Don back on to give his professional expertise on the subjects. Whether you are going through divorce or separation, we do encourage you to take a look at our programs. Thank you.
Join Dr. Donald Gordon and co-host Jaimie MacArthur as they introduce “Dr. Don’s” credentials and background, the founding of The Center for Divorce Education, and some interesting facts about children and divorce.
S1:E2 - Lying to Your Child
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 2
“Lying to Your Child”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to the Co -Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents, and today I have my colleague Chelsea with me, and we're going to be going over some feedback that we have recently received from a parent who took our program. Today's subject is, "What do you do if your co-parent is lying to your children?" I'm going to assume that this is referring to co-parent lying about the other parent to their children, and we will bring on Dr. Don here in a little while, and he can give us his professional feedback on the subject. But what are your thoughts on this, Chelsea, about lying to your children?
>> Chelsea: My thoughts as a mother immediately go to one of two situations, either somebody lacks integrity to which I would highly recommend professional help. However, I think that there is a larger part of the parenting community that may feel like their intentions behind a lie are good, and therefore they justify it. I think in those situations, it's coming from a place of protectiveness, which is an instinct. But truth be told, how we handle that instinct is truly an opportunity for us to represent ourselves and show our children who are watching us how to handle big, powerful emotions. We can also use that as a challenge. It's hard, but it's not impossible.
>> Jaimie: Right. What do you mean by lying with good intentions?
>> Chelsea: Let's say a parent doesn't show up for their child's graduation, but they promised that they would. The child would be heartbroken and crushed, and the other parent that did show up may feel stuck covering for them. That's where I could imagine a lie coming in to protect the child might be relevant. In situations like that, I'd say don't lie, because that reflects poorly on you. You have to be a healthy role model, and that's your responsibility, and you can really only control yourself. So it is okay to admit that you don't have all the right answers. It is enough to just let them feel what they need to feel and just be there.
>> Jaimie: Right. No, I agree. And we do know that our program and workbooks actually outline what may be appropriate to share with your children as well. So you obviously wouldn't want to share the same things with a six year old as you would with a 15 year old, right? Because they're at different levels and they wouldn't understand the same things. In my opinion, usually a coping mechanism, lying to your children because you're trying to take your hurt feelings and put it on the other parent.
And maybe not in all cases, but that definitely is, we see that a lot with co-parenting, putting your child in a loyalty bind. So I will actually go over a few points from our What About the Children? workbook. The children are not responsible for the divorce and separation, obviously. You will always still love them, both parents. They still have a family, including both parents, and explain who they likely will be living with as far as grandparents, moving, that type of situation. What routines will be the same and what will change as far as the bedtime activities, school, what parent is taking them where and when, and let them express their feelings and concerns about the divorce and separation as best as you can. But at no point in this entire book does it say to lie to your children, especially when it's concerning the other parent.
>> Chelsea: Exactly. And I love those points from the workbook because there's this common misconception that divorce or separation is the end of a family. It does feel that way, but really it's just the start of something new. It's okay that it looks different than what you thought it should look like. And I think that it's really important, because of those points, to focus on not putting our kids in a position where they have to play both sides or pick and decipher what's real and what's a lie. We don't want to manipulate our children, and that's really important to teach them to not be that kind of a person.
>> Jaimie: Right. Kids are sponges, so you're basically their role model. And when you lie to them, especially about the other parent, they also feel what both parents feel, usually. So let's say I'm telling my child, “Your dad is stupid,” or, “Your mom is stupid.” Well, my child relates also with that other parent. So I'm telling my child, hey, this is part of you as well. And it can definitely backfire later on. So I feel like this is more likely to happen also with teenagers, because with teenagers, they usually have a better understanding of what is going on, the divorce and separation, and they're more likely to pick sides between mom and dad. That really can, in the end, put your child in a situation with feelings that they're not ready for.
>>Chelsea: With the children, especially of that age, you're dealing with kids who are much more cognizant of what's going on around them, but they are still children, so they only know so much, they only know what they're taught, and if you keep them in the dark on certain things, and you only show them what you want them to know, they're not stupid, they'll pick up on what's between the lines, but they're not going to fully understand the situation. So it's something that you want to be very mindful of along the way, because like you said earlier, they will resonate with that.
>>Jaimie: What I will do is go ahead and bring on Dr. Don, our expert here, and see what he has to say about the subject. Dr. Don, what is your professional opinion about lying to your children?
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: When you're in that situation, you need to search what your intentions are. What are you trying to accomplish? If you're trying to make the other parent look bad, and it's a common temptation when you're going through a contentious divorce or separation, that's going to put your child in a bad situation to making the other parent look bad, so look at your intentions, and notice if you're in a fight or flight mode. If you're in a fight or flight mode, that means part of your brain, the amygdala, is causing you to either attack or counterattack or flee, and you're not able to attune to your child's emotions when you're in that fight or flight mode. So you're not able to imagine how your child is going to react to what you're telling them about the other parent lying. So it's necessary to calm yourself down before you say anything, and we teach parents how to do that with the breathing, with thinking of some happy memories, with being grateful for certain things, to get yourself calmed down.
Then what you can do is to tell your child that the other parent must have forgotten their event. Sometimes their other parent over-schedules, they get too committed to something else and simply forget. That's a much easier piece of information for the child to handle than to think the child that parent intentionally chose to be with, say, a date than with them at their special event.
>> Jaimie: Right, right. And I'm not sure of what this parent that gave us this feedback, their specific situation was, but like you said, lying with certain intentions is the point. So if your child is, let's say they do have an event and you have to miss the event because you're at work or you had a prior commitment that you have to go to. And then the other parent goes to the child and says, "Oh, well, your mom or dad is on a date." And that's why they couldn't make it, which is lying to the child. Their intentions are negative. They are purposely making that other parent look bad to the child, which is the issue.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, in this situation, a couple of skills that would be useful is don't assume motives on the other part of the other person. So consider what are some other motives besides the negative ones you assumed? And there's some maybe benign or even positive motives. Once you make yourself aware that there are other motives for the other parent's behavior, then you're less likely to stick with a bad motive.
Another important skill is “stop, look, and listen,” is to stop yourself from reacting defensively and with anger and doing that by taking some deep breaths, pausing, thinking of a good memory. So you stop yourself, then you look at all your options for responding. Don't just go with the first one that comes to mind because you're in a fight or flight mode. What are the different ways you can respond to this situation? And then finally, listen to your better nature. Show the better side of yourself when you respond, instead of showing the worst side of yourself because you're in a fight or flight mode.
>>Jaimie: Right, right. No, that makes perfect sense. And we appreciate your feedback here today, Don. Whether you are looking for a divorce, have already been divorced or are thinking about divorce or separation, the skills do work and they do help. And we encourage you to tune in next time. Thank you.
In this episode, co-hosts Jaimie MacArthur and Chelsea Murry discuss the implications of lying to your children about your co-parent, and bring on Dr. Don to introduce skills for avoiding this common problem for divorcing and separating parents.
S1:E3 - Parent Dropout
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 3
“Parent Dropout After Divorce or Separation”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode three of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. And today I have Chelsea with me again. I'm Jamie and we'll be going over a parent comment that we received with our program, the Children in Between Online program. What to do when one parent doesn't want to be involved in their child's life? That's good. Yeah. So this is a touchy subject.
We'll go over what our workbooks that are free to download in the program say as well as what's in our program. So what are your thoughts on this, Chelsea, when a parent doesn't want to be involved?
>> Chelsea: I think the number one thing to remember in situations where there is little to no contact with the other parent, is that it then becomes your responsibility to ensure that that child is not blaming themselves. And, that is due to the parent's absence. And that is one thing that we've known statistically right, after plenty of studies, plenty of clinical trials. That is one thing children do. Sometimes it hits later in life. Sometimes it's present in the moment, but it does affect them. And that is something that you can work to sort of navigate if you pay attention to it. I think that in the Children in Between workbook actually we emphasize that they need to know that the other parent does still love them at the very least. They just need to know that the other parent still loves them, and I know how complicated that can be, but it is critical that they know that the other parent isn't trying to purposefully hurt them.
Focus on what you can control really at the end of the day. You showing your child what healthy love does look like with your actions is pivotal.
>> Jaimie: Right, no I completely agree. There are many reasons why a parent can drop out. We know that, you know, drug and alcohol use, mental illness, so many other reasons, but I personally, just me, if a parent wants to drop out I say let them, but you do in these circumstances have to think about the child and what's best for that kid.
We do know that when a parent drops out of a child's life that it can cause all kinds of issues later on, mental illness, drug and alcohol abuse, delinquency, many many others, so you do have to think about the kid in the end of the day. Telling your child that hey, you know, dad is just at work and he'll see you later is also just as ineffective for the kid. You don't want to lie to your child either, so there's a fine line of what do I say to my kid when the co-parent doesn't want to be involved and I think telling them simply, you know, your mom or your dad is dealing with their own stuff right now, so you may not see them for a little while, but they still love you is the best thing that you can do for your child in my opinion.
>> Chelsea: Right, that's pretty age -appropriate too. I certainly believe that a neutral stance is a safe stance, which that was perfect. That was a great example. It's you didn't necessarily defend them. You still protected your child's feelings. You're mindful. I mean, I think that's a great general response. In the Children in Between workbook, we also say to give the other parent the benefit of the doubt, which, honestly, may be the most challenging part, because that requires you to create some sort of trust with someone who's likely given you plenty of reasons to not trust them as a partner in life and as a co-parent. However, remember what's at stake. I mean, if it's your child's mental health that's at risk, why not at least try to keep some hope alive? I think that the key here is to compartmentalize- just because someone has failed you on a personal level doesn't necessarily mean that they are an unfit or unsafe parent, which is important to remember because if you end up in front of a judge, that's what the court cares about. They don't care that they hurt your feelings or that they cheated on you or they did shady stuff. They care if that other person is safe, if they can provide a safe environment, if they are fit to parent. You can be agonizing, watching someone disappoint your baby and then be the one that's left there to pick up the pieces, but again, you just have to focus on what you can control.
>> Jaimie: New relationships as well, I think that's, in my opinion, the most common thing that we see is when one of the parents moves on, gets into a new relationship, and then the other parent can't be around the child because the parent that has custody won't allow it at that point, and that is so wrong. Just because a relationship ends does not mean that you get to keep your kid from the other parent.
>> Chelsea: Which there's a term for that. Parental alienation.
>> Jaimie: Exactly. You really do have to think about your child in that situation. What's best for them in most circumstances is to have both parents involved, and obviously, that does not include domestic violence or substance or mental health issues. Let's go ahead and bring on the expert and see what his opinion is on the subject.
All right, Dr. Don, what is your professional opinion on when a parent does not want to be involved with their child?
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: There's a lot of different reasons for that. The parent may not have much confidence in their parenting skills, particularly if the other parent has been mostly involved raising the child while they were together. And they were peripheral when they were with the other parent, and they didn't have much confidence in their parenting skills. And you've combined that, that they had a lot of confidence in the other parent's parenting skills. They figure, well, it's not going to hurt the child if I don't see them because they're getting good parenting. And I wouldn't be very good at this. And quite often, this is the father that thinks this way. And it wasn't until more recently that fathers have been, know that they need to be involved in their children's upbringing. The father would think that my ex is doing a really good job. My being involved isn't really necessary, particularly if they had lost their temper with the child, one time said something mean or hit them, spanked them, and figure the child's not going to forgive them. Or if they have a substance abuse problem, they're going to think that I'm not good for my child. And perhaps the mother has said that, you're a drunk, no good for your child. There also could be the fact that in this case, the father didn't have a father very involved with him when he was growing up. So they didn't have a role model and never learned how to do that. And they don't know that parents can learn parenting skills in a fairly short period of time, and they can improve over time with those skills, so that it's not static. Because they're not very good now, doesn't mean they're not going to be good in the future. And quite often, fathers who haven't been very involved, after the breakup, they'll get very involved with the kids and really like it and really get very good at it. Just because you haven't been very involved while the relationship is going on doesn't mean that they're not going to be a really good parent once you put your mind to it.
Another big issue is the father in this case, this example, the father has a new partner and he feels badly about having failed in the first relationship. So he's overly eager to make the next relationship work. And if the new partner is as common, discourages him from seeing his children, perhaps out of a fear that he might go back to his ex if he has contact with the kids. If she discourages him from seeing his children, since he's trying so hard to make that relationship work, he's more likely to not see his children, to please his new partner, particularly if they have children together and she's making a point, you need to be involved with this family, your other family, it's in the past. And there's more pressure on him not to see his children from the first relationship.
>> Jaimie: Right. Yeah, you bring up some really good points that I hadn't even thought of, to be honest. Alcohol, drug abuse, those types of things are a big factor generally for parents not wanting to be involved. And in some cases, maybe that is the best situation. We don't know where they can go and get help because most parents, your child needs you. So I cannot relate to just dropping out of a child's life. That makes no sense to me, but there are situations where I can understand why somebody would. So in most of the cases that we see, they choose to avoid contact with that other parent and therefore they're losing contact with their child as well.
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: Yes, this is true, particularly when that parent who's not seeing the child is still not over the first relationship. They still have attachment to that other partner, might even be in love with them. When that parent has, let's say in the case of mom, has repartnered and has a new boyfriend or even remarried or he's living with her. For the father to come and see the kids, it's intolerable to see her with another man. And he's also afraid they'll have conflict in front of the kids, which he thinks will hurt the kids. So he's, in a way, being protective of the kids by not going there because he'll protect the kids from conflict.
Plus, he can't deal with it himself. He can't deal with his envy and jealousy that she has a new partner. Regardless, the mother should encourage that contact with the father and the children. And she may have to tell her new partner that that's important for the children and she's going to stand up for that. And if he objects to her ex coming by to see the kids, she needs to draw a line in the sand and say, "My children's developed that need, they need contact with their father. And I'm going to support that and you'll have to just deal with it."
>> Jaimie: I guess what you're saying is that it does take both parents.
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: When we first developed the Children Between Program, we had interviewed many undergraduates at the university whose parents had been divorced. And some of them, they had no recollection of their fathers because the parents split up when they were infants or toddlers. And they never, never saw, they didn't know their fathers at all. But even as college students, when they had birthdays and holidays rolled around, Christmas time or Hanukkah, they were still hoping for contact for this father they never knew, that they never stopped hoping that the father would get in touch with him. So when that didn't happen, that pain is always there.
So both parents need to realize that that's going to be long, long-term damage for the child if the parent drops out of their life.
>> Jaimie: Right, right. And I think that's the most important thing, is think about your child in the future and what you want for them, what's best for them. It can be painful being around an ex. It can hurt to drop out of your children's lives, but what hurts the most is the children. And you have to think about them before you decide, "No, I'm better off." You know, or they're better off without me. So thank you, Don, for being here today. And we hope to see you guys next time.
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: Okay, you're welcome.
What happens when one parent drops out of a child’s life after a divorce or separation? Co-hosts Jaimie and Chelsea discuss some of the reasons for parents dropping out, and Dr. Don gives suggestions for co-parents navigating this difficult transition.
S1:E4 - Holiday Tips for Co-Parents
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 4
“Holiday Tips for Co-Parents”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode 4 of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jamie, and today I'm here with my colleague Chelsea, and we'll be discussing some holiday tips for co -parents. We will also bring on Dr. Dawn in a little while so he can give his professional expertise as well.
So, Chelsea, since the holidays are coming up, why don't you give us a few pointers for parents and their kids?
>> Chelsea: The first one is the holidays are for children, and they should be center stage. Above all, give your kids permission to love their other parent. Your children will have a range of feelings this holiday. Go ahead and slow the pace. Also, take care of yourself, and be kind to yourself. Make any sort of travel that you have fun, if you can. Be kind. I know that's hard, but be kind. Learn to use your iMessages.
If you don't know what an iMessage is, I highly recommend you scour our resources page, look into our skill practices, and check out CIBO. We explain it in detail, so you can actually use this to help communicate along the way.
Put a stop to any trash talk. Don't talk down on others, including your co -parent. Share the kids, even when it's your time with them. And that's a challenge, but it's not something that is impossible. It can still be really beautiful. You can still co-parent through the holidays. Communicate, coordinate, and then be flexible.
Make gift arrangements, if necessary. Ask what your kids want as frequently as possible. Stop looking, listen is another skill that really comes in handy here. And we teach that in CIBO. This is a very challenging moment. When your family dynamic is being pressed and you're open to new opportunities and new challenges, especially if this is your first one as a co-parent.
>> Jaimie: In a lot of these situations also, parents may have just divorced or they're going through a separation. And so it does make it even more difficult. You have set up these traditions that you're both used to. And that can also be difficult when you're trying to co -parent and figure out a new schedule for the holidays. I know when I went through my divorce, that was part of the issue that we had, was scheduling holidays. And finally, we came to an agreement that I would have my son every other holiday because that was just the easiest.
But, some of the best memories that we actually have weren't on the holidays. It was me traveling with the kids usually afterwards.
>> Chelsea: I think it's going to be a matter of like, the moms can go pretty wild on Christmas. I mean, we get into it. We really do, a lot of us do. And so you can, as a father and as a mother also, create a new tradition with your children, maybe buy a new ornament every year now that is just for your new tree. Or you guys can also do things together. Create some time as a family and then create new memories together as in at dad's house and at mom's house.
>> Jaimie: I agree. And creating those new memories is part of your new family tradition. And also, it is important to remember, and I think you mentioned that to slow the pace down. You know, don't overdo it on holidays, especially right after a breakup or a separation because slowing down and remembering it really is the thought and the time that you spend with your kids, that's most important. So yeah, yeah, thank you for your feedback here, Chelsea. And let's go ahead and bring on Dr. Don and see what he has to say. Dr. Don, what are some of your professional tips for parents to remember during the holidays?
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, as you both mentioned, slowing down is probably most important. It's especially important because holidays can be very hard on parents, because that's a time where loss really hits us. And things that we used to love and cherish are not there anymore. So it's really hard on the parents to have this sense of loss. The extended families are not getting together, most likely. But it's really hard on the kids, because they've lost their family, the family they had hoped they would always have. And since it's such a hard time, that means that there's a lot of stress. And when parents are under stress, they're more likely to say things that they wish they hadn't said, they're more likely to be critical of the other parent to perceive a threat from the other parent to get aggressive toward the other parent. So those things are usually present during a divorce anyway, but the holidays can exacerbate those. And they can see the other parent is ruining the sense of family that they used to have for the holidays. So we really have to monitor ourselves as parents during this time to make it easier on ourselves to really slow down, to get outside in nature, to exercise, to eat well, to get good sleep, to do everything we need to do to be healthy and calm.
One of the most important things you can do is to give your children permission to love the other parent. One of the worst things about divorce is when the children think that they're not allowed to love both parents, and that's an impossible situation for them. So, if they have to hide their love for the other parent, that's really tough for them. If they think they're making one parent angry because they're showing interest and affection and love for the other parent, that puts them in an impossible bind. Your kids will have a range of feelings during the holidays, and you need to support those and recognize those, not dismiss them. They could be anxious, they could be nervous, they could be sad, and it's important to help them verbalize what they're feeling. We have a feeling wheel in our children's program where children learn how to express and recognize and express their feelings.
That's good advice for adults too, for us parents, to be able to recognize our feelings and admit them to ourselves, and that helps us cope with them. By pushing our strong feelings out of our awareness, which is tempting to do, it just comes up in other ways. It'll slow us down, it'll tire us, it'll make us distractible, so it's better to just admit the feelings we're having to ourselves, to talk out loud about them to someone else, and to do the same for our children.
Don't try to plan too much for the holidays, because you want to be really fun for the kids, but going from one place to another to another, especially if you're having to get on airplanes or drive long distances. Holiday travel is stressful for everybody, and there's often delays at airports.
Try to make new memories with your kids. New traditions that you can keep up year after year, for instance, going out and cutting a tree down. And in our family, we would go up to the property in the mountains and cut down a Christmas tree. It looked like a Charlie Brown Christmas tree, but it was important that we cut it down ourselves and brought it back and put decorations on it.
Try to be kind to your co -parent. That's a person at one point you loved, you may still love, but be kind to them. They're going through their own struggles, they're suffering themselves, and they will appreciate any acts of kindness, and it may surprise them. You'll never regret being kind to someone who is suffering.
>> Jaimie: Those are great tips and good things to keep in mind during the holidays. What would you say about sharing the kids with your ex during the holidays?
>>Dr. Donald Gordon: It's important to be especially generous with your ex and not to think, "Well, this is my time, I deserve this time," but to compromise and to give your ex time with the children because it's equally important to them. And they're more likely to reciprocate that if you're generous with your sharing.
Don't trash talk the other parent, don't say negative things about them. As we've said before in another podcast, the children identify with both of their parents and when you say negative things about the other parent, the children apply that criticism to themselves because the other parent is part of them, so if you call the other parent hateful or inconsiderate or lazy, the children are going to apply that to themselves. They can't even verbalize that they're doing that usually, so that's something that you're not going to know that they're applying to themselves, but you need to understand that that happens.
Another skill to use is “iMessages,” as Chelsea and Jamie have mentioned, where you state your feelings about the other parent's behavior without attacking them and stop, look, and listen. It's another skill to use where you stop yourself from your initial fight-or-flight response. You look at all your options, think of different ways you can handle it, and then listen to your better nature and coming up with a response. And another skill is don't assume the other parent's motives. Quite often when we're negative towards someone, we assume they have negative motives. We don't give them the benefit of the doubt. If you give your co-parent the benefit of the doubt, they'll appreciate it and they're more likely to reciprocate toward you.
One of the most hurtful things is when you have a good motive towards someone and they think you have a negative motive. It's very hurtful when that happens.
>> Jaimie: Right. And those are all beneficial skills to keep in mind, especially around the holidays. Once again, we appreciate you for tuning in and thank you, Don, for being here. And I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season.
The holidays are important and stressful times for families going through separation and divorce. How do you shield kids from stress? In this episode, Dr. Don gives some helpful tips for navigating the holidays as co-parents.
Visit https://divorce-education.com/resources/ for more.
S1:E5 - Expressing Feelings and Kids' Mental Health
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 5
“Expressing Feelings and Kids' Mental Health”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to Episode 5 of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jamie, and today I'm here with my colleague Chelsea, and we'll be discussing a pretty serious issue that's been going on. We'll also bring on Dr. Don a little later so he can give his professional response on the subject.
So today's topic is on the children's mental health crisis that is going on. A lot of people and parents probably don't even realize or know that this has been a serious issue for the past few years, especially after and during COVID. There has been about a 40% increase of suicidal thoughts and behaviors in our younger generations, according to the CDC.
What are your thoughts on this, Chelsea? What are the common reasons you can think of for this mental health crisis in kids?
>> Chelsea: The first thing that comes to mind as a mother is technology. My child, this entire generation, and he's six, this entire generation of children is obsessed with their phones. And it's, I think, a superpower in one way to have access to the internet in the way that we do now. However, it needs to be used responsibly, and it's not always used that way. I think that as any parent right now, if you ask them if that's an issue, I think every single one of them would say yes, if they're not in control of setting some boundaries with technology. And I think that COVID-19, in many ways, impacted that, and it's linked. We all kind of navigated our lives through technology when COVID-19 hit. Not only that, but we were isolated from other people.
>> Jaimie: No, that's completely true, especially, I mean, being isolated, not being able to play outside, not being able to have friends like children usually would, and turning to those online or cell phones or technology-based learning systems as well had a huge impact. I actually homeschooled my daughter doing COVID. And yeah, well, I'll tell you right now, I am no teacher. But I did my best, but it wasn't until after the fact that I realized how far behind she was when she went back into regular school.
And like you mentioned, as well with social skills, those had definitely declined, but also her schoolwork and getting bullied and going back into that environment after being outside of it for so long was really, really rough.
>> Chelsea: You know, when COVID-19 first came out and first started impacting us, I remember one of my initial thoughts was out of empathy for the children who use school as an escape. And I know there are many, I was one at one point in my life. And there are situations that have been worse than mine. There is no doubt in my mind that that impacted them.
>> Jaimie: Oh, absolutely. Another huge and terrifying fact about COVID is that a lot of people did lose loved ones as well. A lot of children aren't prepared for that and they don't know how to deal with it. Let's go ahead and bring on Dr. Don.
Hi, Dr. Don. So Chelsea and I have been discussing the children's mental health crisis we have going on. What is your professional opinion on the subject, and why do you think this is happening and what can we do about it?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, from my point of view as a family psychologist, I know that children absorb and reflect the stress of their parents, how the parents are adjusting has a huge impact on how the children are adjusting. And we know that over 70 % of parents, adults in this society experience significant anxiety or depression every day. That's gonna have a huge effect on kids. What are the parents stressed about? You can probably answer this question yourself about the things that you worry about. Money and rising expenses is a huge stressor.
Climate catastrophe, all the conditions that are causing people to be stressed and having to move and dealing with floods and extreme heat and tornadoes. The lack of friends in the pandemic exacerbated that. So people who were in the habit of socializing a lot got out of that habit during the pandemic. And then political polarization, not wanting to be interacting with other people who have a different political point of view.
Distrust of each other in the government is at an all-time high. So that causes people to become more socially isolated. All these stressors put parents into a fight or flight mode. And when they're in a fight or flight mode, they can't attune to their children's distress and are simply physically unable to do that because those abilities come from the prefrontal cortex and the fight or flight mode blocks the prefrontal cortex from being able to work.
Now, when children are not comforted when they have stress, their stress worsens and it can become a mental health issue. There's a national shortage of therapists to treat parents and their children when the parents wanna get help for their kids. They can't get it. And also in schools, teachers really can't respond to the children's mental health needs because they're so overwhelmed with so many kids with emotional needs that are not being met.
There's one interesting thing and a sad statistic. Half of the parents of adolescents who thought of killing themselves were unaware that their teens were depressed. And three-fourths of the parents of adolescents who thought often about death were unaware that their teens were thinking about that.
What can we do for this? We can teach children to express their feelings to their parents and we can teach them techniques to reduce their own stress. Now this can be done with our new online program for kids, which is why I developed it to help deal with this mental health crisis for kids. But we have to increase the number of trained therapists by creating more graduate programs because even though there's federal money to pay for counselors in schools, there's simply not enough counselors. So we have to have graduate programs starting that increase the number of therapists that are out there. The current number of therapists that I know of are, their practices are full and they can't take on new clients and they're feeling overwhelmed. If we can train school guidance counselors and therapists in the latest evidence-based treatment methods, and those treatment methods tend to work faster than methods that aren't evidence-based, then parents in schools can do a better job of getting their children help. And schools can do a better job of reaching out to parents whose kids are struggling to form a partnership.
It really helps kids progress in schools if the parents are communicating with the teachers and working as a team with the teachers.
>> Jaimie: Even school counselors, those really are part of a fundamental thing that children do need growing up and to be able to express their feelings like you said. And as a parent, I can completely agree on being overwhelmed and stressed at times and it does definitely affect my parenting. You want to explain a little more about this new kids program?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: We developed this new program based upon our old kids program that a lot of schools used when they had groups of kids whose parents were divorced. This new program is for children ages 7 to 14, and it's intended to be used by the children and the parents together. So the parents are learning the same stress reduction techniques and emotional literacy skills that the kids are learning.
And then the parents can encourage their children to use those skills and prompt them, and they can also model those skills themselves. So that's why we want the parents to use the program with the kids. To keep the kids' attention, we developed an animated character called Orby, who's an alien from another universe. And this figure teaches the kids these skills, and he's working with the child hosts, and the five chapters in the program, each of them has a different child host, and they interact with Orby, and they teach these skills. These skills are especially helpful for kids dealing with divorce and separation.
Now, most of the kids who use this program with their parents experience less anxiety and depression, as their parents reported, and the parents and kids had more conversations about their feelings after going through the program.
>> Jaimie: Well, it sounds like a very beneficial program, especially with this mental health crisis. Well, we do appreciate you being here, Dr. Don, and thank you all for tuning in. See you next time.
How can parents and professionals help reduce the effects of the mental health crisis in today’s kids? Dr. Don gives tips on kids expressing and understanding feelings, and introduces the latest program from The Center for Divorce Education, Children in Between: For Kids.
S1:E6 - Grandparents
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 6
“Grandparents”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode 6 of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie, and today I'm here again with my colleague Chelsea, and we'll be discussing a comment we received from a parent who took our program. We'll also bring on Dr. Don a little later so he can give his professional response on the subject.
So, let's get to it. Today's topic is in regards to grandparents and children. The parent feedback we got was asking for more information about grandparents taking care of children. So, I will assume that this person probably is a grandparent posing the question. Maybe they have custody of the children instead of the parents. Not sure, but we will touch on a few different situations with grandparents being involved. Let's start with you, Chelsea. What are your thoughts on grandparents taking care of their grandchildren?
>> Chelsea: Grandparents are supplemental. They're there to help. I think that grandparents can have an important role with grandchildren by giving them extra love. And sometimes, grandparents do end up with custody of their grandchildren because the parents may have substance abuse issues or drug abuse issues. And so sometimes it may be the best option for the children to be in the custody of their grandparents.
>> Jaimie: I mean, sometimes that can be better than CPS getting involved or foster homes, you never know, in certain situations, like drug or alcohol abuse. And the grandparents can be the best option for the children. They're much more likely to keep the parents involved also usually have a think than foster homes or CPS getting involved. They also have a lot of experience with life generally that can help shape a child's future. And they do tend to be much calmer than regular parents, you know, they've had all that experience already. And they're much more likely, I think, to teach children, especially young children, to cook or bake or do gardening, you know, things that most parents maybe don't have the time to do or aren't as experienced with. Obviously, there are other circumstances as well with grandparents being involved that we'll touch on briefly, like grandparents who live in the home with parents and grandchildren or grandparents who play a very active role in their grandkids lives. What advice would you give in those situations?
>> Chelsea: Well, let's say that the grandparents are living with the children and the grandchildren. Maybe they are part of the everyday household and decisions being made. Our Parenting Wisely courses actually touch on this a bit and how to handle multi family situations. In this case, it's best to have the parents and grandparents on the same page with rules and expectations for the children.
>> Jaimie: Agreed. Grandparents that are really close to their children or grandchildren need to remember that they are, you know, they're to be a good role model and help the children grow into healthy adults. Show the children love, obviously. And parents and grandparents should have frequent conversations, in my opinion, about what the expectations for those children are so that they can help teach the children the same principles too.
>> Chelsea: Right. These issues with children should be handled between the parents and grandparents. And not in front of the children. But grandparents can be role models for these kids and help shape them for the future.
>> Jaimie: Now let's go ahead and bring on the expert and see what he has to say. Dr. Don, what is your professional opinion on grandparents and their grandchildren?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, I'm really interested in this topic since I'm a grandparent. And I think it's a really important role. The most important role grandparents play is paying attention to their grandchildren, getting involved with what they're doing, and especially listening to them when they speak. So using the skill of active listening, where they can reflect back what they heard the child say, this is especially useful when the parents are really busy or are single parents and the other parents are not very involved with the kids, then the children need more support because of that. The grandparents provide childcare and transportation, and that helps relieve the stress that parents are feeling and allows them to recharge so they can spend better quality time with their own children because they're getting a break.
Grandparents can also support positive parenting practices by the parents, by withholding criticism of what they're doing, but being supportive and praising good parenting practices. Grandparents can recognize good parenting practices, for instance, through our Parenting Wisely online program which shows the best parenting skills that help children's adjustment.
Children find a lot of support from their grandparents when their parents are stressed or unavailable to them because they're getting attention from somebody that they love. Grandparents also can offer mature thinking that will help their less experienced adult children and stressed adult children solve problems better because the grandparents have more experience and are older and have more mature thinking.
So it's an opportunity for grandparents to correct mistakes that they themselves made by raising their children. For example, a lot of grandparents would use yelling or hitting to control the kids when they were misbehaving. But then later on as they get older, they realize that wasn't the best approach. So now they can encourage their own children to avoid yelling or hitting and do things like sitting down with a family meeting and having group problem solving and talking through solutions instead of reacting emotionally and yelling at the kids.
When parents are ignoring the kids because they're busy or they're stressed, they can model spending time with them and listening to the children and the parents can watch the grandparents using less stressed methods of interacting with the children.
>> Jaimie: Well, once again, we appreciate you all for tuning in and thank you, Dr. Don, for your feedback. See you next time.
Grandparents play an important role in the raising of healthy kids, especially in co-parenting situations. Grandparents can help reduce the stress on parents during and after divorce and separation. Parents and grandparents can learn new skills by using the https://parentingwisely.com/ programs.
S1:E7 - Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) Score
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 7
“Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) Score”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode 7 of the Co -Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie, and I'm here again with my colleague Chelsea, and today we'll be discussing ACE scores. Alright, Chelsea, since you are formally trained on the subject, why don't you go ahead and tell us what ACE scores are?
>> Chelsea: ACE stands for Adverse Childhood Experience. So to put it as simply as possible, there were highly credible studies conducted that determined which traumatic events in our life pack a punch, and the impact of having experienced a certain amount of them. A quiz was actually created that allows you to tally those events. That's called your ACE score, the number that you come up with.
The higher your ACE score, the more at-risk you are to trials and tribulations in adulthood, which by the way, you can find that quiz within some of our online parenting classes as well as on the resources page of our website.
>> Jaimie: So adverse childhood experiences, basically childhood traumas, right?
>> Chelsea: Pretty much. A few of the most common adverse childhood experiences are physical abuse, substance abuse, and surprise, surprise, divorce and separation. Unfortunately, 87% of ACEs occur together. And having accumulation of these experiences can result in a child growing up predisposed to mirroring those events themselves. Chronic mental illness, cancer, homelessness, and the list just goes on and on. Most dramatically though, ACEs can actually take years off of your lifespan.
>> Jaimie: Okay, so ideally we want to see these ACE scores decrease in future generations, right?
>> Chelsea: Oh, most definitely. And thankfully these studies have empowered us to identify what the risk factors are so that we can address this issue as a society. I think the buzzword we're hearing these days is generational healing. And that's pretty much exactly what this is.
>> Jaimie: Okay, well, I also did a little bit of my own digging here on this. Here's a few statistics that I found also. According to the CDC Kaiser ACE study, they uncovered a stunning link between childhood trauma and the chronic diseases people develop as adults, as well as social and emotional problems. This includes heart disease, lung cancer, diabetes, and many autoimmune diseases, as well as depression, violence, being a victim of violence, and suicide.
With an ACE score of 4 or more, things start getting really serious. Like the likelihood of chronic pulmonary lung disease is increases 390%, hepatitis 240%, depression 460%, attempted suicide 1220%. So clearly this is obviously depressing. Is there any way to prevent or even reverse the effects of ACEs?
>> Chelsea: Oh yeah, thank goodness. ACEs are preventable and there are measures being taken in communities across the US to help. As this is an issue that impacts us all as an entire society. I cannot emphasize how deeply I believe this to be an issue that heavily involves all of us and requires us to unify to solve.
While there are some amazing nonprofit programs specific to certain traumas, some things that we can do today as parents is open ourselves up to self-education with our finances, our emotional intelligence, our parenting skills too. And then be genuinely willing to make some improvements. It takes one easy web search to find the resources available to you from online classes to books and podcasts to local support groups.
Also, we can work to break the stigma with our daily conversations. Don't allow your struggles to become a taboo topic that remains unaddressed. Now, as far as reversing, what's important to know about ACEs is that they alter the way our brains develop in childhood. And our brains can be rewired. There are now evidence-based therapy techniques proven to help mitigate the effects of the traumas you've experienced.
There are also other intervention programs available to those who are most significantly impacted. A great place to start would be to speak with a licensed mental health professional.
I really have to say to parents who are listening, while it isn't your fault that you've experienced childhood trauma, it is your responsibility to address how you allow it to impact you and those around you, including your children. None of us are above needing a hand in this matter.
>> Jaimie: Let's go ahead and get Dr. Don on here. Dr. Don?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Okay, Chelsea mentioned that there are skills that our classes teach that can help with the disease and the damage from childhood trauma that we as parents can do to put ourselves in better shape to parent our kids. And one of the things that we teach is how to calm yourself. We learn in these classes that when you're not handling a situation well, you're having conflict with your ex, you're most likely in a fight or flight mode. That means your amygdala is activated. You can't show compassion, sympathy, empathy, reasoning when you're in the fight or flight mode, you're either going to run away or you're going to fight. So we teach skills to get yourself out of that fight or flight mode. And especially when you start to notice it like you're noticing your muscles are tensing up simple things like taking some deep breath. Just focusing on the sound of the breathing feeling some gratitude for what's going on in your life currently that's good. We teach communication skills so you can learn to communicate respectfully with your former partner so that you won't trigger them and provoke them.
So those are very important skills to minimize the effects of ACEs on our current situation. The biggest thing that we can do as parents is if you or your ex have experienced some of these childhood traumas and you're easily triggered and you're not handling situations well, to remind yourself that what your children need from you is calm attention. Paying attention to what they're saying and what they're doing. Making them feel supported and loved and cared for and noticed. You want your children to be seen and to be heard. So, helping them know that you understand what they're feeling is really important to them and will keep them from developing some of the risk factors for ACEs.
Our children's program teaches evidence-based methods for lowering their stress and teaches them how to express their feelings to their parents and It teaches the parents at the same time how to talk to their children when they expressed their feelings and how to listen to them for doing that. So, protecting your children if you or your ex has a score of 4 or more is really important.
That means that the two of you are more likely to be triggered and more likely to be in a fight or flight mode in which you're not going to be emotionally available for your children when you're in that mode. And the more often you're in that mode, the more damage happens to your children. And you're simply not aware of your children's distress because your brain isn't letting you, it's not giving you access to your frontal cortex where that's where you can emotionally attune to your children.
So, that's the best thing that you can do- help your children express their feelings, give them calm attention when you play with them, reflect what they're doing, listen to them when they're talking, use active listening to reflect back what you hear them saying. That makes children feel really good and really valued and having their parents do it is more important than having anyone else do it because they love their parents and are dependent on their parents for approval and security.
>> Jaimie: So not only is trying to reverse the ACE scores as adults by doing mediation, taking classes, coming up with some emotional support, but also trying to prevent the ACE scores in your children is just as important.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: There's one other factor I could mention. If your partner has an ACE score of 4 or more or you know of, they've had a number of traumatic experiences as children with a parent with substance abuse or violence or being neglected by a parent, it's important for you to develop some compassion for them and to know a lot of their conflict toward you and a lot of the things that they do you don't like is because of that. It's really not about you, it's because of what their early experience is. And so I encourage you not to take it personally when they are doing things that really irritate you. It comes from their own childhood trauma. And if you recognize that, that will help you not get triggered by their reactions.
>> Jaimie: And if you guys have not taken the quiz for your ACE score, we do encourage you to do so. It is important to know for yourselves and your children. Once again, we appreciate you all for tuning in. And thank you, Dr. Don, for your feedback.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: You're welcome.
An Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) score is an inventory of different types of abuse, neglect, and other indicators of childhood trauma. A high ACE score increases your risk for problems later in life. Get your ACE Score HERE.
S1:E8 - Using Money as Leverage
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 8
“Using Money as Leverage”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode 8 of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I am Jaimie, and today I'm here again with Chelsea, and we'll be discussing one of the comments we've received from a parent who took our Children in Between course. This parent asked what to do when one parent is using money against the other parent.
And this happens quite frequently, actually, and can be a difficult thing to deal with, where one parent seems to be the "fun" parent, and spends a lot of money on the children, while the other parent doesn't have the financial stability to do that. So this can also be one parent using child support payments against the other parent, or not helping out the other parent financially with the children when they're angry.
What are your thoughts on this, Chelsea? What would you suggest when one parent is using money against the other parent?
>> Chelsea: You know, we talk so often about really thinking about your children. It can hurt deeply to go through a divorce or separation, and it can be the most difficult thing ever to be on good terms with your co -parent, but you have to. Don't use money against the other parent. Instead, consider your children and what is best for them in both homes. And yeah, we do constantly say to think about your kids first, because it is true. If you're trying to out-parent the other parent, your children are suffering at the other home because you wanted to show off or use money against the other parent. And no, I don't mean don't take your kids out or have fun with them. I mean, to really think about what is best for them in the long run. Does your kid need new shoes? Do they need clothes or food? If they don't have these important things, but you want to take them to Disneyland so you can be the fun parent, to make sure that the other parent looks less exciting. That isn't fair in the long run for your kids. It may not seem fair that you have to pay child support because the other parent got custody, but your children do cost money. And the same goes for the opposite side. When a parent may be using the child support and not actually using it on the kids, but to go out and have a good time, which is equally not okay.
Child support is meant to help with the children and their needs. And that can include things like a roof over their heads and food on the table for them too. And if you are using your financial status just to make yourself look better, remember that these kids grow up and they are going to see one day that you were trying to buy their love instead of just being there for them and helping support them. Don't use money against the other parent instead consider your children and what's best for them in both homes.
We aren't saying to go out of your way to support the other parent's lifestyle either. Just that your children's lives don't just end in your home. Be there financially for them in whatever way you can and don't try to hurt the other parent by using money against them.
Let's go ahead and bring on the expert here and see what he has to say about the subject. Dr. Don, what are your thoughts on using money against the other parents?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: I think money is an issue probably for most divorcing parents or divorced parents because it's about our security. One of the reasons why divorce is so traumatic for parents is the second most stressful life event that people go through is because it's associated with security.
Two things about divorce that are the biggest threat is that you'll have less money afterwards. Your expenses will go up and your income may go down and you are worried about your access to your children and your children's emotional stability.
So two big things you're worried about is your own financial security and your children's, your own access to your children, especially if the other parent is trying to get complete custody and take the kids away from you with little contact. That makes people terribly frightened. It puts them into a fight or flight mode and then they can get very, very angry and aggressive in response to that. And some attorneys will take advantage of that and fan the flames because the litigation really goes up.
There'll be custody evaluations, there'll be appointments of attorneys to represent the kids and it's a long drawn out process. That's because the parents are so frightened. If they can talk to each other about their fear, they have a better chance of resolving it with less conflict. That makes the money issue, it makes a lot of sense. And so after the divorce has occurred, when one parent feels like the other parent should be paying more and is not, again, that strikes fear in their heart because that's security. And they're really worried about having enough money.
Other times parents will use it as sort of like scorekeeping. It's not fair that you're not paying for these extra things or you're not paying for our trip with the kids out of town. You should be paying for part of that or you're not paying for some of the school expenses. So some of the parents who are not cooperating very well like to keep score and they're very sensitive if they think the other parent is taking advantage of them through money.
This is why it's such a big deal and this is why it's so important for parents to learn the skills to reduce their fight or flight response, to reduce the amygdala hijack that occurs. When the amygdala hijacks the brain and you can't use your frontal cortex to calmly solve problems because money is an issue and if child support is not being paid for various reasons like the parent doesn't have a good job or doesn't have any job and a lot of states those two things are the courts look at those two things separately.
If the custodial parent is not getting child support, they do not allow that parent to say the other parent can't see the children so that they treat those separately. I know Texas in particular and Michigan in particular and I think Illinois are three states where that's the case. There's really a cool program in Wayne County, Michigan, which is Detroit, where they have gone with unemployed non-custodial parents, quite often fathers, and they weren't seeing the kids and through mediation they got the mom to agree to let the father see the kids even though he wasn't paying any child support.
Quite often that resolved that they stopped going to court, the dad was seeing the kids and then later on they got some employment and then they started paying child support so it ended up working out really well. Intentionally targeted those kids who are at risk, they weren't seeing, they're already in poverty and they weren't seeing one of their parents and that's a big risk factor particularly for African American kids. They're much more likely to get involved in the juvenile justice system when that's the case.
>> Jaimie: Don't we even go over that in our program that it's more likely that a parent will pay child support if they are involved with the kids too because then they feel the need to?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Yes, absolutely. They're much more likely to be involved. They're seeing how the children benefit from that. They're more likely to pay for the children's college or at least pay part of the expenses if they're seeing the kids. If they're not seeing the kids, it's rare that they're paying anything toward the children's college. So that really puts a kid at a disadvantage if they can't go to college. Kids from divorced families are less likely to go to college than kids from intact families.
>> Jaimie: Like we always say, do what is best for your children, financially, emotionally, the best that you can. We do appreciate you all for tuning in. Thank you, Don, again for your feedback.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: You're welcome.
After divorce or separation, money usually becomes tighter for both parents. Many support-paying parents resent having no say over how the money is spent, particularly if they think the children are not getting their needs met.
S1:E9 - High Conflict Divorce and Separation
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 9
“High Conflict Divorce and Separation”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode 9 of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie, and today I'm here again with my colleague Chelsea, and we'll be finally discussing a very tough subject that many parents ask about. High conflict situations.
Before we go any further, keep in mind that Chelsea and I are not experts. We're simply here to give our own opinions on these subjects, and then hand it over to Dr. Don, the actual expert. So, Chelsea, we have had a few parents who took our program asking about more information on what to do in high conflict cases. What comes to mind for you?
>> Chelsea: Honestly, the high conflict parents that I come across working with customer support for our level 2 High Conflict Solutions parenting class tend to be my favorite, only because they're in the middle of a storm I've also been through, and I know how they're feeling to some extent. So, I also know that even though it feels beyond daunting, the stress does come to an end. So, when I speak with these people who are almost always about to crack from the stress, they've talked to someone that day who's holding on to some hope for them. I do think it's important to know what a high conflict case is, though. It's not to be mistaken for a domestic violence case, and also doesn't simply mean that your co-parent is a narcissistic jerk. It means the conflict between the co-parents is so significant that their struggles to communicate are affecting their ability to come to agreements regarding their children.
Mediation can help, but sometimes these parents need more assistance with finding middle ground. Parenting coordinators and custody evaluators are often very helpful in these cases. But about 15% of all divorces are considered high conflict, which is 15% too many.
>> Jaimie: Yeah. Parents don't usually intentionally hurt their kids, but when you are so focused on the other parent being angry with them, you are inadvertently hurting your child.
>> Chelsea: I completely agree. If you weren't focused on your child and what is best for them and instead you're spending your time angry with the other parent, then that's less energy you have to spend on being the best parent you can be. It's as simple as that. And Dr. Don has mentioned this in our previous podcast, but what we're talking about here is a brain chemistry thing. Parents can't attune to their child's emotions when they're under significant amounts of stress. Their brain just won't let them.
>> Jaimie: And in high conflict situations because there is so much emotion involved, it can really help to find other outlets to keep yourself occupied as well. Instead of focusing on the hurt or anger, talk to a friend, practice deep breathing, go on walks, or really focus on things that you enjoy to do. It can be hard ending a marriage or relationship. And we even say in the program that a lot of anger actually comes from fear. So keep in mind that your co-parent is also likely feeling that same fear, whether they show it or not. And I am curious because I know you've taken the eight hour online course before, what's your favorite parenting skill in High Conflict Solutions?
>> Chelsea: Empathy. We spoke about ACEs in episode eight of our co-parenting conversations podcast and how trauma can cause us to react in a certain way. These cases would go a bit more smoothly if parents learn to understand that their co-parent's trauma is what has them maybe shutting down or raging out. They can then take steps to respond in a healthy way.
All of those skills are taught in High Conflict Solutions too. What about you, Jamie? You've been through the program. What's your favorite high conflict solution skill?
>> Jaimie: I would say my favorite skill is actually giving the other parent the benefit of the doubt. So instead of getting angry with your co-parent because they fed the kids pizza and you're trying to have them eat better. You know, why don't you take a moment and think, well, maybe your co-parent is having a difficult time parenting or maybe they didn't feel well or maybe they just really wanted to give the kids pizza because they want to see the kids happy for the day.
Reframing what the other parent is doing really can make a huge difference too.
Well, let's go ahead and bring on the expert now, Dr. Don. And let's see what his thoughts are on high conflict situations.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: In high conflict cases, sometimes it leads to interpersonal violence or domestic violence. And that's more likely to happen if one parent feels entitled to control the behavior of the other parent and that usually precedes actual physical violence.
If you're in a situation where you think the other parent is controlling you, limiting your access to your family and friends, demanding where you go, where you spend your time, it's a good thing to develop a safety plan for getting out quickly, for you and your children getting out quickly to be able to communicate with your local domestic violence shelter.
So domestic violence is common in high conflict cases, but there's ways that you can minimize the damage. Some of the skills that we teach in this high conflict program can be helpful in not triggering the other parent to become violent. For instance, “I Message” is a good one, when instead of criticizing them, you talk about your feelings about their behavior, making a polite request for them to change, and a lot of domestic violence victims know how to do this. They work very hard to avoid triggering the other parent and some of the skills we teach in the program can help you with that.
You talked earlier about your favorite skills. One of my favorite skills in that program is stop, look, and listen. So when you're in a situation that's getting tense, first you survey your body to see if you're feeling tension. You stop yourself from reacting quickly. You look at all of your options. What are the different ways you can react to this? Reminding yourself that you have more than one option. You don't have to fight back. You don't have to trade insults. You don't have to run away. Look at your different options and then listen to your better nature. Choose your best self to respond. Even if it doesn't have a really good effect or noticeable effect on your ex, you're setting a really good example for your children when you do this and they're learning. That's how the best way they learn is from the example that you said.
Another thing to be sensitive to about high conflict, you're doing damage to yourself in this conflict. It's not just the other parent that if you're aggressive toward the other parent, you're also doing damage to yourself because when you're in the state of fight or flight, the amygdala, which is part of your brain that we teach you about in our high conflict program, the amygdala is the fight or flight response and that's triggered and the amygdala becomes active. You don't have access to your prefrontal cortex where you can make calm decisions where you can be empathic, where you can be emotionally attuned to other people, including your children. You simply physically cannot access those skills, so you have to get yourself out of the fight or flight response before you can do that.
Your body is generating cortisol and adrenaline and that affects yourself greatly. It affects your brain. There's actually some evidence that you're losing gray matter in your brain, the more often you're being flooded with cortisol. That's true of your children too, when they are witnessing or hearing about or seeing an intense argument between their parents, even if they're in another room. That cortisol release stays in their body for 72 hours. So when they go to school, their ability to concentrate and focus is impaired. And their ability to regulate their emotions is impaired. So this can cause them to become a behavior problem in school. Most parents don't know this. They think, oh, kids are resilient or they didn't really pay attention to our fight. They did pay attention and their bodies are generating cortisol, which is having an effect on their brain.
Parents tell us that learning that has really helped them shield their children from conflict. They didn't know that that was happening. It takes 72 hours for that cortisol to get out of their system.
>> Jaimie: Yeah, that's a long time.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: And you have to also watch yourself. You have to look for ways to avoid being triggered by the other parent and to be able to give yourself other options to calm down so you're not triggered, so you don't get into this negative spiral that Jaimie, that you and Chelsea were talking about, this vortex.
>> Jaimie: Right.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Another factor is that when you are in fight or flight mode, you're not aware and don't have any compassion for the suffering of your child's other parent. So they too are suffering.
>> Jaimie: Right.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: And they're unhappy and they're stressed and they're having damage to their brain as well. And if this is a person that you once loved, that you shared goals, lifetime goals with and even though right now you're in the middle of a fight and don't feel any compassion, that's something that you can develop, that they're also suffering.
>> Jaimie: Thank you, Don, for being here. We appreciate you all and thanks for tuning in. See you next time.
Most divorces and separations have a least some conflict. But about 10-20% of breakups are considered high conflict cases and require court intervention. How well co-parents handle the breakup will affect children’s pain, how their needs are met, and how their future unfolds.
S1:E10 - Dealing With A Narcissist
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 1, Episode 10
“Dealing With A Narcissist”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome to episode 10 of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I am Jaimie, and once again, I'm here with my colleague Chelsea, and today we will be going over our most asked about subject, narcissists. We have many parents who do ask how to handle situations with a narcissist.
Now, first, let's go ahead and really look at the definition of a narcissist, which is a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves. A person who lacks empathy has almost no idea of how others are feeling, or understanding of how to make them feel better. A lot of people do say, "Oh, he or she is a narcissist," but they really need to look back and think about if this person ever showed empathy or cause or concern. If they were incapable of that, you very well might have been dealing with a narcissist, but just because someone thinks highly of themselves and wants power or success does not make them a narcissist. It could just be them trying to show off or better themselves in their own way, I suppose.
>> Chelsea: True. To put this all into perspective, narcissistic personality disorder affects only about 1% of the population, which really hasn't changed since 1968 when it was actually established as a disorder.
>> Jaimie: Whether they are just, you know, being a jerk or a narcissist, let's cover some skills that you can use to deal with this person. First thing that comes to mind for me is to remind yourself that you are good enough, and not to blame yourself for their behavior. A lot of dealing with narcissists and getting hurt stems from them actually throwing out how much better they are than you when in reality, that may not actually be the case.
You know, remember that they just need to feel good about themselves and this has nothing to do with you. You need to just stay focused on yourself and your kids and don't take their, you know, their behavior personally.
>> Chelsea: Ooh, that part. The reason a lot of people even get caught up with narcissists is because they lack boundaries. So that's one thing that may give victims of narcissistic abuse some empowerment. Work on creating and holding some boundaries.
>> Jaimie: Many parents may feel like the other parent shouldn't, you know, have their children because they are a narcissist or they don't deserve their children. But also try to keep in mind that the children do still deserve both parents in their life and they do deserve to love both of you.
>> Chelsea: Right. Right. Yeah. Don't commit parental alienation against people who are still technically fit to parent.
>> Jaimie: The best thing that you can do is not to feed into the narcissist's need for attention. When you stop giving attention to what other people are doing, they eventually stop the behavior because yeah, all they really wanted was a reaction from you. So it gives you back your own power and lessens the other person's continued conflict towards you when you stop acknowledging it as well.
>> Chelsea: There are ways to live a healthy, functional life and begin to genuinely thrive without feeling like you're constantly at war. So there is help out there. And whatever side of the situation you're on, the online parenting classes based on Dr. Don's research all have tools that can help with opening and controlling lines of communication with your children and co-parent. You're not alone in this.
>> Jaimie: Dr. Don, what is your professional advice on how to deal with a narcissist?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, when you're dealing with a narcissist, it's important that you have established as mentioned earlier boundaries for yourself. And they're very important. It helps to stick to specific parenting schedule to have them spelled out parenting schedules and times. Even such things as when the other parent should call and be able to talk to the children. So that is something that doesn't have to be constantly negotiated. The narcissist will often seek attention by trying to negotiate everything, even stuff that has been settled.
It's also good to communicate via text or email instead of with your voice on the phone or in person to minimize being manipulated by the narcissist. And that way you can control what you're saying via text and email. You can think about it before you hit the send button. If you want to also keep your communication down to a minimum, you can use an online scheduling program such as Our Family Wizard, which is a really good way to set the times for the kids, to keep records of things, to exchange money. So you don't have to do this in person. And this has been very helpful for parents to be able to bring about co-parenting instead of cooperative parenting. We are doing parallel parenting.
It's important with a narcissistic parent to avoid criticizing them. Quite often they have low self-esteem, although it doesn't seem that way. But their egos can be pretty fragile like eggshells. And your criticizing them will set them off. If you can avoid doing that, which is really tempting because they're criticizing you, you can minimize the interaction.
Another thing that's important for you as a parent is to empathize with your children to help them understand what's going on to express their feelings. And you can set a good example by using “I Messages,” which we teach in our programs, where you're expressing your feelings toward the other parent. And you can set that example. And if your children can express their feelings, they have a much better way of increasing their emotional intelligence and being able to resolve issues. They'll also let you know how they're feeling. Quite often, parents whose children are very stressed, very anxious or depressed, don't know that their children are stressed, anxious, and depressed because the children don't have any words for that. So it's important they learn how to express these feelings. And our children's program does a good job of doing that. Not only does it teach them how to express their feelings, it teaches them how to use evidence-based methods for reducing their stress. Things like deep breathing, gratitude, thinking of happy memories. So they're better able to take care of themselves and lower their own stress. You're using these stress reduction methods too in front of your children would be another powerful way to set a good example.
With a narcissistic co-parent, don't have any illusions that they're going to change, if you just change the way you act there, they're going to become less narcissistic. Expect them to continue to be that way and you just have to work around it.
This may sound strange, but anytime they show consideration or kindness or compassion for other people, especially your children, praise them for that. Give them attention for that. They like attention. So if you can limit yourself to not giving attention to them unless they're showing something positive or kind, then you give your attention to that. And what we generally find out is not only do ignoring things that you don't like help that behavior to stop, but giving attention to things that you do like, you'll see more of that behavior.
>> Jaimie: Yeah, we also go over that actually in our Parenting Wisely programs as well to not condone bad behavior with your kids. You know, praise them for the good behavior, but don't don't constantly get on them for bad behavior because most people go towards getting attention, whether it is good or bad.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Right. Like you'll see with your children that they will train their parents to pay attention to them when they're fighting. That's more likely if the parents are not paying attention to them and they have to have a fight to get the parents attention.
>> Jaimie: Which essentially I would say is very close to how a narcissist is.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Yes, they'll pick a fight with you because they want your attention
>> Jaimie: Yep, exactly.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: So it's best if they're behaving in a rational non-controlling way. They're being reasonable. That's what you pay attention to. That's what you give your attention to and withdraw your attention when they're not being that way. So you really have a lot more power than you realize, but we're kind of, as humans, we generally pay attention to when things are going wrong and we're stressed. Then we pay attention to that and you have to train yourself to pay attention to when things are going right.
>> Jaimie: Well, we appreciate you for being here, Dr. Don. This does put an end to season one, but we do wish you all a wonderful holiday season and we will see you next year.
A narcissist lacks empathy. How do you navigate co-parenting issues with a narcissist? In this episode, Dr. Don gives some helpful tips for communicating with a narcissistic co-parent.
S2:E1 - Back To School Tips For Co-Parents
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 1
“Back To School Tips For Co-Parents”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie, and I'm here for Season 2, Episode 1 with my colleague Chelsea, and our executive director, Dr. Don Gordon. We know that school is coming back up if it hasn't already in your area. So today we wanted to share some back-to-school tips with everyone. Chelsea, what's one thing that comes to mind when you think of kids going back to school when their parents have recently gone through divorce or separation, or currently are in one?
>> Chelsea: Well, I imagine for kids, the most important aspect to this would be knowing that they will still have friends and support through the divorce or separation. You'd probably want to assure the children that they are still loved and cared for, of course, as always. If they're switching schools because one parent lives in a different area, let them know that they still have friends or that they can make new ones. Give them that extra boost of confidence. They can still keep in contact with old friends and find a way to schedule that in. And as a kid, your friends and having fun is so very important.
>> Jaimie: That's a great point. I do agree. I think that although kids may be shaken up a lot by divorce or separation, knowing that their peers are still going to stay the same or that they have new friends is a great reassurance for them.
We also stress frequently how important it is for kids to be made aware and understand what will change or stay the same when you're going through divorce or separation. So that should include things like school functions, changing schools, or trying to keep things as normal as possible for the kids, like having their friends. You know, another thing that is suggested is to let the school know about the divorce or separation. I know that can be a little bit triggering for some people or hard to understand, but it can alert the teachers to possible changes in attitude, or other signals that they may need to be aware of for the kids. And, you know, obviously that way the teacher or school may also need to know to send home double the amount of school information, you know, one to each parent as well.
>> Chelsea: Right. Informing the school gives the teacher or the staff the opportunity to help them emotionally if it's needed. Another important thing to consider, though, is talking to the kids before school starts about their feelings. Run through some questions that they might be asked by their peers about the divorce or their parents and how they might respond.
>> Jaimie: And also giving them, you know, tools to help them feel emotionally stable when they're having a rough day or upset about the breakup can really help as well. Probably most important when it comes to a child who has already moved or is going to be living in a different place because their friends are more likely to ask what's going on in their life.
Also important that kids have enough information to also be able to share what they're comfortable sharing with their friends. You know, the living situation is obviously an important thing to know, which house they'll be at when or if they're moving, that they'll still be able to inform their friends and still have some sort of communication with them if possible.
Let's go ahead and bring on Dr. Don and see what his expert advice is on the subject. Dr. Don, what are your thoughts on kids going back to school after or during a divorce or separation?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Like you mentioned, Jaimie and Chelsea mentioned, it's important to let the school know about the divorce because kids need all the emotional support that they could get. And it prevents the children's behavior from being misinterpreted, for instance, if they're acting out, if they're angry, if they're withdrawn, the teacher might come down on the kids if they don't know what they're going through. So having the teacher know what's going on will give him or her the opportunity to provide some support and not overreact to the child's misbehavior.
Quite often, teachers can be harsh and send a child to the principal's office or shame them in front of the class if they don't know what the child's dealing with. It's also important to keep the kids informed as best you can about what's going on. If they're going to a different school, They still need a peer group. They still need friends. It's really important to them, especially as they start getting into the middle school years. The peer group is really important. So if the child has moved to a different school out of their community, the parent needs to make some efforts to keep them in touch with their previous friends. And fortunately, with technology, FaceTime is a really good way to do that where they can do FaceTime or Zoom calls with their friends, and take some effort to coordinate that with the friend's parents to make sure that they can have regular contact.
Parents don't always know when the children are suffering because of divorce-related stress because a lot of kids just don't have good vocabulary for talking about their feelings and what they're doing. So if children are not talking about their feelings, parents will often not know what they're doing. And if parents themselves are stressed, they're not going to be emotionally attuned to their children because they're physically prevented from that because when they're in a fight or flight mode, they simply can't tune in to other people's feelings.
Children can focus much better at school if they're not stressed. So first, to reduce the things that stress children would be parental conflict. So if the parents are having conflict in front of the children or within earshot of the children, the children's bodies will produce cortisol, which is a stress hormone. And that takes about 72 hours to leave their bodies. So if the children are exposed to a parental fight, say on a Sunday, it won't be until Wednesday until that has left their body.
Now, that cortisol will interfere with their attention in school and with their emotional regulation. That impairs their learning, and most parents don't know that. So that's a good incentive for parents to not expose the kids to that conflict. You can also directly help the children with their stress by using techniques that are demonstrated in our new children's program, which is called “Children in Between For Kids.”
And these techniques include deep breathing. That's a really effective one. Naming their feelings, thinking of what they're grateful for, changing their thoughts. And it's most effective that parents can model these techniques for their children, in other words, demonstrate the techniques, and then prompt their children to use the techniques. So there's specific stress-reducing techniques that kids can learn.
Another important thing to remember is that kids may go through deep feelings of loss, they probably will. And it takes about a year, according to experts, for children to come to terms with their parents' divorce. They're not going to do it quickly. they're showing behavior problems.
So if you help them express their feelings and let them know it's okay and normal to miss the other parent, that's important. Some parents are not very good at tolerating the child missing the other parent, particularly if they have a lot of anger toward another parent. So the child may get the message that they're not supposed to miss their other parent or they can't talk about their other parent. And that makes it really hard for the kids to deal with that. Now, my real professional advice would be to pay serious attention to how your child feels and behaves during this divorce and separation.
They may be having a harder time than you realize and helping their emotional literacy. In other words, talking about their feelings is a real good way to find out. Seek professional help, like a good evidence -based parenting program to improve your parenting skills during this time. So parenting skills can always be improved and learning how to do things like properly monitor your children's behavior, how to support and reinforce them, how to communicate respectfully to your children, how to use discipline that's appropriate and not too harsh.
These are things that most parents can learn to improve on and assure your children as often as you can that they're still loved. Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that one, and that's some great advice. You know, kids do need to be reassured and still believe that both parents love them, as well as being able to keep in touch with friends and family and have as much as that along the way as they can get.
>> Jaimie: We do thank you, Dr. Don, for being here with us. Until next time.
Back-to-school can be stressful for parents and kids, especially during or after a divorce or separation. In this episode, Dr. Don gives some helpful tips for reducing your child's stress during this time.
S2:E2 - Attuning to Children's Feelings and Managing Stress
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 2
“Attuning to Children's Feelings and Managing Stress”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie, and I'm here again with my colleague Chelsea and our executive director, Dr. Don Gordon. We've been talking a lot lately about mental health, and I will actually let Dr. Don start us off this time, since he is the expert and seems to know a lot about the issue. So, Don, let's start with some of the statistics you've been talking about lately in regards to the mental health crisis in America.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: This has been a big change in the last decade that 70 to 80 percent of adults have significant anxiety or depression every day. Think about that. Every day they have noticeable anxiety or depression. In my lifetime, we've never seen that kind of increase. So, just about everybody is dealing with something. It's good to keep that in mind when you're walking around and see other people or you're irritated that most everybody else is dealing with their own issues, too. That's an opportunity to try to show some kindness, to randomly smile at people, say hi to people because they're dealing with unpleasant stuff and just a little act of kindness can make a difference in their day.
We also find that children's mental health has deteriorated. There's been a 40% increase in mental health disorders in the last 10 years among children with depression and anxiety and suicide. Suicide is really increased especially among teenage girls. Now, along with that deterioration in mental health, access to treatment has really declined as the number of therapists has not kept up pace with the demand. For instance, in my area in Southern Oregon, every therapist I know doesn't have any room for any new referrals.
>> Jaimie: Right, yeah, and I've seen that as well in a lot of the therapists that we talk with. You know, there really isn't much debate here about this being a pretty big issue. What do you think the main stressors are for people right now or why mental health issues are becoming so common?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, probably for most people, one of the biggest stressors is cost of living, the price of living. Your ability to pay your rent or to meet your mortgage. Your rents are increasing. Again, locally, if you're looking for a one or two bedroom house, you're going to be paying 25 % more than you did three or four years ago. And people's salaries have not gone up 25%. So they're being stressed.I know one teacher and she works two extra jobs in order to pay for a two bedroom apartment. And she has no free time. She's spending all of her time, you know, working. And that's going to affect her in the classroom and it's going to affect the children's education when she's having to worry about the rent and the mortgages. And then the prices of food, we've all noticed that when we go to the grocery store, we're paying more for food. And they're also, they may keep the prices same for some products, but they're decreasing the Exactly. So you're getting less for the same amount of money. It's getting harder for parents to put food on the table and to serve healthy food.
Another source of stress is the quarantine that came along with COVID caused a lot of problems and children's peer relationships were disrupted because they weren't going to school every day and seeing their friends and they're staying at home and a lot of kids fell behind significantly, and that happened in the US quite a bit, and people are still trying to recover from that. Schools are seeing behavior problems that increased because of COVID and the quarantine, and when kids came back into the classroom with more behavior problems, the teachers in the schools weren't prepared to deal with those. They didn't have an increased number of supportive staff for that. The class sizes didn't go down, so it made it much harder for schools to deal with that. So that's been a big source of stress. And when kids are having trouble in school and worried about their own competence, they bring that home and that affects their behavior.
As I mentioned before, there aren't enough therapists. In Oregon, there's been some large grants to increase the number of therapists who are trained so they'll be available. But that's a two to four year period of time. So since COVID, we really haven't seen an increased number of therapists moving into the community. That's still another year or so away. Now, contributing factors to the stress will include the stigma that children will feel if they're not doing well in school, if they're not popular with their peers, they're feeling that they're not as liked, particularly if they're using social media a lot. You'll see online bullying, which takes a really heavy toll on kids.
And again, since I mentioned before, kids' emotional literacy is not high. They're not able to talk about their feelings with their parents, so the parents are not aware that the kids are having a hard time and can't help out.
>> Jaimie: I know a lot of people who have roommates now or are living with their exes or staying in a relationship simply because they can't afford to live alone now. So the financial stress parents have experienced, you know, affects their children as well because they're less likely to attune to their children's emotions and less attentive, you know, more irritable, and that makes it more difficult on kids as well.
So Chelsea, what are your thoughts on the mental health crisis?
>> Chelsea: You know, when you have kids, a lot of other factors come into play. The price of food and childcare are very hard to handle when you're working and trying to provide for your kids. Not to mention that stress obviously makes it more difficult to focus on your children and really giving them your time and attention.
>> Jaimie: I know I have a hard time focusing when I'm stressed or worried about things as well. So Don, what would you suggest might help with the stress or some techniques you might have to help cope with this?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Okay, well, one of the simplest and most effective ways of dealing with stress is to take a number of deep breaths. One of the ways that's effective is that focuses your attention on the present moment, which is called mindfulness. So if you're taking a breath and you're only paying attention to the sound of that breath coming in and going out of your lungs or the feeling in your body as you're breathing in and then breathing out and you pay attention to only that, then your stress will go down. And the more deep breaths you can take, the more your stress will go down. So everyone can do at least one deep breath where they're paying only attention to that breath. And you just pay attention to the sound going in and the sound going out or the feeling going in and the feeling of your body as it goes out. And if you can string several of those breaths together, it'll lower your stress. The key to that is being, bringing your attention to the present moment. Most of our stress is caused by worrying about the past or the future, regretting something that happened in the past or worrying about something that's going on in the future. For most of us in the present moment, it's okay. We're not, There's no crisis going on in the present moment. It's our worry that's creating stress. So if you can bring your attention to the present moment, then that lowers your stress. Another way to do that is to pay attention to your senses, to notice what you're seeing, look around, or look around, especially if you can see nature. Look at the trees, look at the leaves. Pay attention to your senses, the feeling of the sun on your skin. Pay attention to sounds. So anything you can do to focus on your senses will bring you into the present moment and lower your stress. And that way it's similar to taking deep breaths.
Another effective technique is to think of all the things that you're grateful for. It's called a gratitude practice. You can make a list of all the things that you're grateful for. Instead of focusing on what you don't have or what you're not getting, focus instead on what you have. And that's been very effective at getting people to feel less stressed.
And another technique is changing your thoughts. It's surprisingly easy to change your thoughts. Whatever you're thinking about, you can change it just like you're changing a channel on your TV set. You just switch to a different channel. A lot of us will get into repetitive thoughts like going down a rabbit hole or worrying about the same thing over and over and over again. This tends to happen to people when you wake up at night. In the middle of the night, you start thinking about the same thing over and over again, like a worry, and it's very hard to get back to sleep. So changing your thoughts like changing a channel is an effective way of lowering your stress.
>> Jaimie: Okay, well those all seem like really helpful techniques and a lot of these we actually do cover in our courses as well by the way. Any suggestions specifically for parents on how to maybe help them focus more on their children instead of stressing when they can?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: The nice thing about focusing on your children that's related to mindfulness is that you're if you're paying attention to your children You're paying attention to the present moment that what they're actually doing and you're looking at what they're doing You will be watching their play if you're paying close attention You can attune to their feelings and if you were going to tune to their feelings They're going to sense that and they're going to feel very supported. You know, no matter what their feelings are, if it's worry, if it's embarrassment, if it's happiness, if it's laughter, tuning into that lets them know you're on the same wavelength. When we have that experience with another adult, like with a friend, and we know that a friend is really tuning into what we're feeling, we feel really supported. Your children are the same way, and they really need your support in that way. So attuning to your children means that you're putting your own stress aside, your own worries aside, and you're focusing on what they're doing.
Another thing to do is to put your phone down as a parent. You know, if you look around, you see people walking down the street or see people sitting at a table or even in their cars, they're staring at their screens on their phone. You need to put your phone down so you can pay attention to your children. It's sad when you see parents and kids together, when they go out to dinner, the parents are on their phones and the teenagers are on their phones and they're not talking to each other. So that's a missed opportunity to connect and support each other. And it gets harder and harder for us to do that and for the kids to do that because these algorithms are figuring out what it is we like and they keep giving us those things that we like and it becomes addictive. So working on some of these techniques with your children and showing them how to do these things like a gratitude practice, changing your thoughts, deep breathing, that's going to help them. They can learn, children can learn to do this, young children can learn to do this. Encourage your kids as often as possible to express their feelings and listen to them. And To be a role model, you need to learn to express your feelings as well. Now, a lot of adults have a very limited feeling vocabulary, so there's things like feeling wheels. You can look up on the internet where you can see a whole range of feelings, and the more you use those other feelings and express them, the more your children will learn to do that as well.
>> Jaimie: We do thank you, Dr. Don, for being here with us, and we hope this information was helpful. Until next time.
In this episode, Dr. Gordon discusses the importance of attuning to your children's feelings amidst the stresses of modern life. As rising housing costs and other pressures mount, Dr. Gordon offers compassionate advice on how to stay connected with your kids while managing your own stress. This conversation is essential for co-parents seeking to create a supportive environment at home, even in challenging times.
S2:E3: General Parenting Tips and Managing Screen Time
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 3
“General Parenting Tips and Managing Screen Time”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie. I'm here again with my colleague Chelsea and our executive director, Dr. Don Gordon. Today, we're going to go ahead and cover just regular parenting in general. Chelsea, can you give me a few examples of just general parenting things you think people might need help with?
>>Chelsea: Well, absolutely. I can think of a few things that I know are important to me as a parent, things like chores or helping around the house, kids acting up in public. These are the common things that I can think of, but I think it also depends on the ages of the children as to what consequences are appropriate.
>> Jaimie: And one of the big issues that I know I face now with my own kids, and I'm sure many parents can relate to this, is electronics and social media
>>Chelsea: I think everyone would probably like some suggestions on how to handle this since it's such a huge topic now.
>> Jaimie: Yeah, exactly. You know, it is hard to know how much time in front of a TV or on video games or social media is really appropriate. Let's go ahead and bring on Dr. Don. And maybe he can help us out with this one.
Dr. Don, we're discussing general parenting tips like getting kids to help around the house, kids acting up in public, and one of the major ones, kids and screen time on phones, computers or social media. What would you suggest when it comes to getting kids, you know, probably teenagers to help more around the house?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Okay, I'd look at a few factors when requesting children to do chores, for instance, their age and their maturity. You'd expect a lot less out of younger children than older children and younger children need to have the steps laid out to them more clearly. So teaching them how to do the chores, the way you want them to be done, for instance, the dishes, you know, and rinsing them off, putting them in the dishwasher or whatever, putting them in the dish strainer - show them the steps. Don't assume that they know how to do it. And then providing incentives, particularly with older children, concrete incentives tend to be more effective. For younger children, your praise and warmth and attention is often efficient to get them to do the chores. A lot of times, young kids like to help out, and they're proud of themselves for being able to help their parents out with chores. As they get older, as you know, particularly middle school, they have a lot less interest in helping out. Now, for young kids, doing the chores with them motivates them because they get your attention because you're doing it with them. And again, you can show them exactly how you want the chore done. Point systems will also work well to remind them what their chores are and it also reminds you to monitor or pay attention to the chores and to give praise and incentives when they're completed. So I like point systems because it's a reminder for the parent and the child.
>> Jaimie: Well, obviously you can't have kids, you know doing chores who don't know how Like having the kids do dishes like you mentioned, and then leaving soap all over them, and then going behind them and doing it over, which defeats the whole purpose of them doing it in the first place. What are your suggestions then on when a kid acts up in public? Let's say I'm going into Walmart, my kid starts throwing a fit because I won't buy her something that she wants.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, this is a very common one that parents deal with, and kids will learn to throw a tantrum in public if they've gotten what they want by doing that in the past. And this is covered in our young child program. So an example that you just gave, there's a few simple skills that can be used, you know, even with young kids, but having a talk with them before you go into the store about what you're expecting. Try to give them a role in which they can help out and help your shop in some way. Another skill So you can contract with them to help you find items and not to demand what they want. In return, you can buy them a treat or let them choose from items that you want to buy. You can also deal with a tantrum by ignoring them. And if that doesn't work and if they're too loud, you can also warn them that they don't desist you'll take them out to the car for a timeout. So you might actually have to leave the store with them and take them in the car and sit with them in the car for a period of time and if they don't comply with the warning then leave the shopping cart and take them to the car for several minutes of time out. That will teach them that you're serious about your warnings and in the future they're more likely to obey after you give them a warning.
>> Jaimie: And it is hard sometimes saying no to children because the immediate gratification of just buying them something they want at the store is easier than fighting with them usually. But having that discussion with them prior to going to the store is a great idea. What about kids and screen time? Let's say either the TV, video games, cell phones, social media, how much do you think is appropriate and how do we limit this without having to deal with a bored kid all day?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: That's a good question and it depends on their age. For instance, at the appropriate age to have a phone, you know, and then access to social media the mid-teens. And it'd be best if you start them off with a flip phone instead of a like an iPhone with a big screen. So that's the type of stuff that gets addictive. I don't see too many people getting addicted to a flip phone. The amount of screen time you want your children to have it's probably best to deal with that by having a family meeting and you talk with each other and try to reach a consensus on the amount of screen time per day. Again with you as a parent having the final authority.
Now be prepared to have alternatives to social media time such as the children getting together with their friends and you may have to provide transportation to make that happen, coordinating with their friends parents to make that happen. It's a lot more effort than simply letting the kids use social media to communicate with their friends. Encourage them to speak to their friends directly on the telephone instead of by texting or through social media. Encourage them to have outdoor activities with their friends, getting out in nature as a calming effect for all of us, children included. As a parent, in order to protect your children from the harm that comes from social media requires increased monitoring or supervision on your part.
Social media and video games are risky and kids can post mean and cruel comments and bully your child online. So it's good to have a discussion with your teen and preteen about how algorithms are used to keep your eyes and their eyes on the screen. And they'll supply you and your children with topics that have interested you in the past. And over time, you get more and more topics that are highly interesting to you. So it keeps your eyes on the screen. And that results in targeted ads. And that's how companies make money. That will simply increase, and you let your kids know that this is happening so that they're being used so these companies can make money. So you need to join with your children in resisting that and fighting against that. These companies don't have any interest in reducing the damage that they do to your children or to you. They're just interested in making money. So parents need to do some research on how this works so they can talk intelligently with their teens to resist this harmful influence. So that puts you, the parent and your child on the same side in resisting the social media influence. And again, you'll have to set a better example yourself in front of your children. So that means less time on your phone when you're with your kids. I know myself because I've done it. I’ll get on and watch these reels, these videos that cater to my interest. And I'm highly interested in certain topics like whitewater paddling and things like that and golf. And so I'll watch those videos and I notice over time I'm getting more and more of those videos. The technology knows what I like and they're feeding it to me. And then I'll show up when I'm on the computer and ads for those products will suddenly show up on my computer. So this is kind of scary the way this is so sophisticated. And it'll simply with artificial intelligence, it'll just get more sophisticated. All the more reason for you to team up with your teen and preteen to resist this. And you need to educate yourself about that. It's also important to set up activities outside of screen time, getting kids together physically with their friends, getting yourself and your children outside, doing activities together inside, maybe doing games together, having discussions together, where you're having more involvement with your kids.
>> Jaimie: You know, I really actually like those suggestions. It can be really hard to keep kids away from the TV or off the phone all day. So getting outside and getting that fresh air and keeping the kids, you know, at least informed about social media and the algorithms that work and letting them get a break from that, I think, is really, really important. So yeah, thank you, Dr. Don, for your suggestions. And if you guys are interested in learning more of these parenting skills or other techniques you can use, feel free to visit us at parentingwisely.com. Until next time. Thanks for listening.
In this episode, Dr. Gordon offers advice on managing your child's screen time, handling kids acting up in public, and encouraging them to help with household chores. Packed with practical tips, this discussion provides advice for navigating these common parenting challenges and creating a balanced, cooperative home environment.
S2:E4: Accountability and Improved Communication with Stephen Nixon
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 4
“Accountability and Improved Communication with Stephen Nixon”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie, and today we're going to do something a little different. We have a special guest this morning, Mr. Stephen Nixon, who is not only a family law attorney, but also the founder of Talking Parents, a communication app for co-parents. Many parents who take our programs express how difficult it is to communicate with their co-parent, or to have a set schedule or make changes to a schedule because of the lack of communication. I'll go ahead and bring on Dr. Don and Mr. Nixon to share some of the common issues they have seen with parents and communication issues. Dr. Don, I'll let you take it from here.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Okay. Well, thanks a lot for being with us this morning, Mr. Nixon. Good to meet you.
>> Stephen Nixon: Thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited to be here.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, it's really fun to talk about how we both are doing what we're doing and how we have similar goals. So I want to get into that a little bit this morning. I'd like to start by getting a little bit of your background and why you chose to develop the Talking Parents app.
>> Stephen Nixon: You know, I actually got into family law somewhat by accident. My first job out of law school was as a prosecutor for the state attorney's office here in Northwest Florida. And I did that for a while. And then my brother and I started our own law practice. And I was focused on criminal law, and he was focused on family law. After a bit of time though, life came up, and he ended up leaving the firm. And so I sort of inherited our family law practice. I had never really intended to practice family law, but I ended up practicing family law. It worked out well though, in the end, because as soon as I started going to court on these various family law issues. It became blatantly apparent that in pretty much every one of these cases, regardless of the underlying issue, when we got to court, we were arguing over who had said what and when they said it. And the same thing would happen in pretty much every family law case that I had. Your client would come in and you would discuss the issue. They would inevitably tell you that there were communications between themselves and the other parent - text messages, emails, social media messages. Myspace was popular back then. And, you know, you would tell your client, all right, well, go find those things and bring them to me because we need to see those. And we need to put together some kind of record of what you and the other parent have been saying. And the client would go off and they would take a great deal of time, usually weeks, maybe months and then they would eventually come back to you with this big messy stack of stuff and they would say well I couldn't get the text messages. I could only get the text messages back to this period and I had to take a picture of the phone with another camera and print those out. I've got the emails here but I can't get into my other email address or, I found this message but I'm sure I sent another one but maybe I sent that from a different email and then they would have some stuff from the other parent and we'd have these Facebook or MySpace printouts and all kinds of stuff from different places and what we would end up with was just a mess, just a complete mess and then to make it worse when we would go to court the other parent would have done the same thing. The idea for Talking Parents originally came to me after a four hour hearing that I had one afternoon and we never even got to the heart of the matter. We never even got to our legal arguments regarding the matter because we spent the entire hearing just trying to create some sort of record of what these individuals have been saying to each other.
One side would present an email or a text message and the other side would look at it and say, "Well, I never got this." Or they'd say, "Well, hold on, I got this, but I replied. Do you have my reply?" And then they would both dig through a stack of paper for 20 minutes, and at the end of the day, absolutely nothing had happened. We accomplished nothing, and the court dismissed our clients and sat down with myself and the other attorney and said, "One of you needs to figure out a way for these people to talk to each other where we cannot do this again,” where when they come back to court, we can know exactly what they were actually saying to each other so that we don't waste this incredible amount of time and money and the court's resources. I'm trying to figure out what people have been saying to each other. And that's really where the idea from Talking Parents came from. And so once I realized that that kind of service did not exist with a focus on those perfect unalterable records, I saw the opportunity to build Talking Parents and that's where it started.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well thanks, that makes a lot of sense that to save time and to improve accuracy is to develop an app where you can have this stuff recorded automatically, so it's available to both parents, and I would imagine having that available is going to change their behavior. Because they're gonna have to be accountable for what they're saying and doing now because it's gonna be right there in print or recorded. Well, as a psychologist I've seen a lot of communication problems with these divorcing parents and it's really sad because they've gotten to the point where they are attacking and counter attacking each other. Why does that happen? Here are two people who were married or formed a relationship, had children together, were expecting to be together, you know, forever, and now they're not. And what happened? I think one of the biggest things that's happened that's gotten in the way of their having respectful and clear communication is that they've lost trust. They no longer trust the other person. Then that causes them to become defensive when the other person says something. They're automatically on the defensive. They're expecting to be attacked or demeaned or belittled and it frustrates them and it causes them to react in a similar way.
Another thing that these couples do is they tend to assume the worst of each other's motives. You've heard the expression "giving somebody the benefit of the doubt." You tend to do that with people that you like and that you know and you trust. When you're not sure of their motive, if something happened, you're not sure what's going on, you tend to assume they had an okay motive or a good motive. But when we don't have trust with them, you're more likely to assume the worst, that they're trying to control you, they're trying to frustrate you, they're trying to hurt you. Assuming the other person's motives causes a lot of problems and this leads to counter attacking or criticizing the other parent. When they both do that, neither one of them feels heard and they can't solve problems together. A lot of parents do solve their problems together and reach an agreement either through mediation or through the help of an attorney, or on their own. There's some trust there and they're able to talk and solve problems like agreeing on a schedule for seeing the children and sharing expenses.
But when they have these problems, one parent will withdraw. They don't like the conflict, so they'll just stop talking to the other parent and then they can't share information about the children or they’ll stonewall. In other words, they'll refuse to talk about something and so problems don't get solved. When parents don't feel heard and they don't feel safe, they will start avoiding the other parent and not responding to voicemail, not picking up the phone. The other parent comes to get the children and they'll send the children out. They won't go talk to the other parent. If they continue this and they're not able to solve problems, the confidence and their ability to solve problems diminishes and they blame the other parent and they're more likely to be having a battle in court.
>> Stephen Nixon: Well, those are all great points. And, we definitely see in family law situations where parents are trying to get back at each other. People are very emotional when they're going through the family law system. And they're often, you know, they have a lot of resentment towards each other and maybe a lot of anger. And that can lead to all kinds of poor communication. Sometimes we see situations where it is one parent truly trying to get back at the other by maybe giving them some incorrect information or leaving information out, giving them the wrong information about an extracurricular activity, that can definitely happen. But, what you see in almost every case even, is just parents who are trying to discuss a matter, one parent is trying to maybe discuss something regarding the children and then they're making sort of these personal hurtful attacks against each other. Rather than actually discussing the important things that they need to discuss regarding their children and trying to do it in a professional and constructive way, it kind of turns into these personal attacks. Somebody may bring up an activity that the child wants to do and then rather than discussing that activity and the calendar issues, it might turn into more personal attacks. As that goes on over time, like you were talking about, the trust goes away, the communication breaks down, and then they're not talking to each other very much at all. And when they do talk, it's not very productive. With Talking Parents, it really helps with both of those issues. You know, the idea that a parent would purposely, actively supply the other parent with wrong information or try to sort of set them up, very seriously to make them look bad, our perfect records are going to prevent them from ultimately getting away with that. And the hope is that they're knowing that those records are being kept will encourage them not to do that kind of stuff. And we do find that people pretty quickly get that idea. But even the fact that we track when a parent replies to a message, when they first view a message even if they don't reply, how long it takes them to reply. And then the fact that all of the messages are going to be available to both sides at all times in our perfect records, hopefully creates that accountability so that they will not only want to take part in these conversations and communications with each other, but to take them a bit more seriously and to leave out those sort of personal attacks because they know that if they are putting that stuff into Talking Parents that it's going to be documented and that a court or anybody who might look at it later, is going to be able to see exactly how they were talking to each other. And then again, the hope is that that will encourage them to leave that stuff out, to communicate in good faith, and to get back to each other on time.
And we also find that even just keeping all of these communications within the Talking Parents application reduces stress for both of the parents involved as well, because they're not having to see messages from the other parent pop into their texts. They're not having to be Facebook friends with the other parent. Parents can communicate through our service, through Talking Parents, without even knowing each other's email addresses, without knowing each other's phone numbers if they don't want to. They don't have to share that information or they could change it, but they still have a place to communicate with the other parent. And keeping all of those communications in that one sort of ecosystem can often cut down on some of the stress that people feel with communicating with their co-parent. So, you know, it's easy to think of Talking Parents in our perfect records as sort of a stick as a motivation that while you'd better take these seriously, you better not say anything you shouldn't say because there's gonna be a perfect record that could be used against you. And it may start that way, but I think that people utilizing our service quickly realize that it just helps them feel better to communicate through our service and to have all of these communications in one place to have that peace of mind and knowing that the record is available and that both parents have access to the same record at all times that you know to help them feel mentally healthier maybe a little bit happier if the parents aren't getting along and are arguing and having disagreements or not communicating effectively and that's creating an unhealthy co-parenting environment, the kids are going to feel that.
And when they're communicating through our service and hopefully keeping that stuff out and communicating effectively, the parents should be feeling better, and then that's going to lead to their kids feeling better as well.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Yeah, that's especially true with the kids being affected and that a lot of parents don't know that going up and they're often in fight or flight mode. And then the children are affected by that too and their cortisol levels go up as well. And that cortisol doesn't clear their bodies for about 72 hours, which means that they're going to school with higher cortisol levels. And what that does is it impairs their ability to remember and learn while they're in school and it impairs their ability to regulate their emotions. So they're not going to have a good experience in the classroom. They're more likely to act out because the parents had an argument the day before or that morning before, two days before. Educating parents about that is important and we think that the parents can learn skills to communicate with each other more respectfully and we teach them that. Parents can learn these skills and that helps them be more accountable. They also learn how to listen to a skill called active listening and where they can reflect back what the other parent said. I mentioned earlier, earlier parents don't feel heard by the other parent. When they feel heard, then they're going to be more cooperative. Back to accountability, it really helps for both parents, as you mentioned, to be accountable for their actions. and they're going to be thinking about what they're going to say and do before they do it, if they know they're being held accountable.
>> Stephen Nixon: That is really the hope. As an attorney, I created Talking Parents largely because of the records and because of my need as a lawyer to have quality evidence when you go back to court. Also to avoid your client just burning through their retainer while you're trying to make sense of all these messages and all these various documents that they may bring to you. And then of course, burning through all the court time, trying to do that. So as a lawyer, I was very focused on that aspect of the service of keeping these perfect records. But the idea that you're just going to be constantly getting the other parent in a gotcha, that may happen from time to time, but what we really see, and the real goal, like I was saying, is the parents, because of these records, we have that accountability. And then because of the accountability, hopefully that will encourage them to try harder to communicate effectively. And especially if they're working with professionals like yourself, giving them a lot of new tools and techniques that they can utilize to communicate more effectively so that they can get along better with their co-parent, resolve more issues on their own, that's great for their mental health. It's great for the health of their children, but it's also great for their wallet. You know, if you're resolving more issues on your own, you're not going back to your lawyer and having to keep paying them over and over again to keep going back to court. You're literally not spending that money. You're not spending that time and you're not having to go through that emotional turmoil of being involved in the legal system. So, you know, at Talking Parents, we have a wide variety of features available for parents. The original function of our service was messaging. Messaging is still the core functionality of our service, but over the years we've added a lot of other useful features for parents who are involved in these situations. We have the messaging, of course, we have a shared calendar that works exactly how you would expect. We have an information library where parents can share information regarding their kids so that they can both, you know, easily access that information. If the child has a new doctor, you can put that into the information library very easily, school contact information, things like that. We have a system available called accountable payments so that parents can make payments to each other and through our app and through our service. And then we also have our accountable calling feature, which allows parents to make phone calls to each other through Talking Parents, either voice calls or video calls. The unique thing about Talking Parents beyond the fact that we make these features available is that every feature available through Talking Parents is documented in one of our complete records. Messaging records include obviously the messages, the replies, when somebody first views a new message, any documents that they may share back and forth, when the document was shared, whether the other parent clicked on that document and when. So we completely remove the ability for one parent to try and pull something over on the other and get away with it. And again, the hope is not necessarily to catch people in the act. The hope is that when they know that, they won't do it, that they will take these things more seriously. You know, we log all of that information for all of our features, including the information library. We log all of the details we have regarding payments. If a parent tries to initiate a payment and then it fails, we log when they initiated it, when it failed, if we know why it failed, we put that on there as well. We try and put all the possible information available into our records. But we think all of that through very deeply. We do not introduce a new feature at Talking Parents until we have completely figured out how to log and record everything regarding that feature onto one of our complete records when the feature goes live.
And, again, going back to that same idea that I keep reiterating is that, even though our service makes it very easy to show where the other parents may be doing something they shouldn't be, the goal there really is just to get people to communicate more effectively and to take these things a bit more seriously.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: This is really good to have this kind of detail. There's a record of that. And quite often, people are not going to remember earlier conversations that they had, perhaps because of the stress of going through the divorce. And stress impairs our memory. And so being able to go back and look at a conversation, they can avoid repeating the same level of conflict they had before because they had partially resolved it earlier. So, going through and looking at the record can lower their stress and help them remember what they'd already talked about and they don't have to go over the same ground over again. You'd mentioned also the amount of money that they can save by not having to spend all this time with their attorney and the court coming up with these handwritten records of the conversations. One of the biggest reasons parents get divorced is financial stress, is arguing about money. And when you can reduce this stress by saving them money, by having these records available and having these things where they're accountable, that's gonna lower their overall stress and they're better able to get to this whole process.
So it sounds like this is really helping them get on the same page and having them be accountable. In a way, it's similar to having, trying to teach your children to be accountable. For instance, having them help out with housework and doing chores and things like that. You might set up a chore list and a chart. They record what they do around the house. So this is really helpful and I appreciate the time that you put in with us this morning, Stephen, and gives us a pretty good idea of this app that you've developed and how it's helping families.
>> Stephen Nixon: Well, thank you very much for having me on. This has been very, very interesting for me as well. It's a difficult area to work in. It's difficult for the parents themselves. It's difficult for the professionals. And if it ends up in court, it's difficult for the courts. And we do hope that we can make things a little bit smoother for everyone involved to make life a little bit easier and a little bit better for the parents themselves to save time and resources for the courts. And to give other professionals who work in this field some additional tools to utilize when trying to work with parents to get them to improve their communication. So when a parent wants to sign up for Talking Parents, all they need to do is go to our website, www.talkingparents.com. They can go on the browser on any device. That could be their computer, a tablet, or their smartphone. From there, they can sign up for our service. Once both parents sign up, they get matched together, and they can begin signing in and communicating through Talking Parents. The basic functionality of Talking Parents is available as a free account where the parents can sign in and message each other through a web browser. So even with a free account, parents can still communicate with each other on their phones. They do have options, however, to upgrade to a paid account, to a premium account. That includes access to our device-specific apps for iPhone and Android. There is a free trial period available for those premium accounts so that they can try out some of our additional features as well before they decide if they want to stick with that.
>> Jaimie: That is great information for parents to have and it is wonderful to know that there are apps out there that can actually be so beneficial for parents. So thank you both for your time and thanks to all our listeners for tuning in.
Dr. Don welcomes special guest Stephen Nixon, family law attorney and founder of the Talking Parents app, to discuss how accountability and improved communication can reshape co-parenting dynamics. Learn how transparent and productive interactions between co-parents can reduce stress, save money on court and attorney costs, and foster healthier relationships between co-parents.
S2:E5: Overcoming Cheating and Self-Care After Divorce
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 5
“Overcoming Cheating and Self-Care After Divorce”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to season two, episode five of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. I'm Jaimie, and today I'm here with my colleague Chelsea and our executive director, Dr. Don Gordon. Today, we're going to discuss cheating in a relationship – well, more specifically, how to overcome cheating and self care after a divorce or separation. So Chelsea, actually, I'll let you start us off today.
>> Chelsea: Infidelity is a hot topic in our line of work. I think one of the best things you can do when trying to overcome being cheated on in a relationship is to really focus on yourself, create micro goals, develop a sense of accomplishment and a healthier relationship with yourself, and find graceful ways to boost your own self-esteem.
>> Jaimie: I think cheating can be so hard to handle because it really does leave a lot of people wondering what they did wrong, or why they weren't good enough, or how someone could hurt them so badly. So I really think that when we focus more on ourselves and feeling better about who we are with or without that person, it can really help. Obviously that pain or anger may last a while, but it won't be forever. And remembering the things that are actually important, like your mental health and your children, can be really good for people to get over that pain faster, I think.
>> Chelsea: Absolutely. Doing what's best for you and your children and focusing on them can definitely help your own mental health as well. I mean, and of course, we don't mean using the children against the other parent or trying to be better than the other parent, just simply doing the best you can for your kids.
>> Jaimie: And that actually brings up the other thing we were going to discuss. You know, cheating usually indicates that someone is done with the relationship. Maybe not always, but it is a pretty good indicator that the person was unhappy enough in the relationship to cheat. So maybe they fell out of love. Maybe they needed something that the relationship couldn't provide or maybe they were just unhappy. Regardless of why they cheated, which by the way, I'm definitely not condoning, they chose to cheat and that usually indicates the end of the relationship. Most parents are so overwhelmed with their feelings of anger or hurt that they do use the children against that cheating partner, which in turn, of course, only hurts the kids. Let's go ahead and bring on the expert, Dr. Don, and hear his thoughts.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: As you can imagine, the person who was cheated on is feeling pretty devastated in their self -esteem plummets. They don't feel very loved. They don't feel very desired. They feel like they fail the other person somehow causing cheating is a number of negative thoughts that the person cheated on goes through. A lot of these names simply may not be accurate but the problem was with the cheater not having enough honor and integrity to stay true to the relationship. It's important to get over this by focusing on your positive qualities instead of beating yourself up. Focus especially on your parenting. What are you proud of as a parent in your relationship with your children? Because that's something you can be reminded of every day when you're with your children, the positive qualities. It's also a really good way to keep yourself from obsessing about the cheating, by being in the present moment and playing with your children, talking with them, interacting with them, doing activities with them, and they'll really really benefit when you're that present with them.
This also means not being on your phone when you're with your children to resist the temptation to be entertained by your phone and really spend time with your kids. And that's something that you'll always have as your relationship with your children. And it's quite different from the relationship with your partner. And try not to get so angry with the other parent that it causes you to denigrate them to the children. It may cause you to want the children to reject that parent, as someone they can't trust either. But the parent -child relationship is really different from the parent-parent relationship, and you need to resist the temptation to use the children as weapons against the other parent. In extreme cases, when this happens and results in parental alienation where the child doesn't want to see and be with the parent, that's usually one parent getting revenge on the other parent by causing the children to reject that parent. I'm not talking about situations where the children have a good reason to be afraid or dislike a parent, like that parent abused them or neglected them, but I'm talking about a more common situation where the parent who is cheated on wants to destroy that relationship. That is a horrible thing for the children that affects them for the rest of their lives. And quite often they end up rejecting the parent who caused the parental alienation.
Other things that you can do to help yourself in this situation if you were cheated on is to take really good care, like getting good exercise, getting good sleep. Exercising is really good because it gets your juices flowing and makes you feel better after a workout, best to be out in nature as much as possible, to be paying attention to all of your senses when you're in nature, you know, the sights, the smells, the sounds. Whenever you're in the present moment, you're not worrying about the cheating because that means you're focusing on what's right in front of you. And this is something that'll help you in the long run and help you immediately.
Another thing you can do is write in a journal where you can put your thoughts down and about what's happened with you, clarify your feelings about it, be real clear on what your feelings are, don't run away from your feelings about the cheating, the sadness, the anger, feeling rejected, be real clear what your feelings are, don't dwell on them, but don't run away from them. So writing in a journal can help with that, just like talking to a dear friend can help with that as well.
>> Jaimie: A lot of times after someone gets cheated on, it really does make them feel bad about themselves. But blaming the other parent doesn't change anything, you know. So remembering who you are and the things you're good at or like to do is definitely a good idea. How long would you suggest that someone should wait after being in a relationship to get into a new one. You know, I know a lot of parents ask us about that.
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: It's a good idea to wait for at least a year before you get into a new relationship, to give yourself time, the process, what's going on, to get back to being comfortable with yourself, having the feeling that you can keep yourself occupied and entertained, and you don't have to have someone else to do that. You jump into another relationship right away, you may not discover that you're perfectly capable of entertaining yourself and taking care of yourself. So you may have been dependent on the previous partner in a relationship, and then you just jump into another dependent relationship where you're dependent again on that person.
A lot of parents want to get into a new relationship after a relationship has failed to, for reassurance that they're lovable and attractive to the opposite sex or to the same sex as the case may be. And they want that reassurance that they're attractive and lovable. And that's normal to want that. But there's problems with that. If you're not waiting, whatever problems you had in a previous relationship are more likely to be carried into the new relationship. It's also really tough on children who, if they're young, they're more likely to start getting attached to a new partner. And if you're jumping into a new relationship, there's a good chance that won't last. And if your children are getting attached to that new partner, then that relationship ends and that's disruptive again to the children. They're having to go through another loss. And the more of these disrupted relationships the children see or experience, the more likely they're going to develop serious mental health and behavioral problems.
>> Jaimie: If you haven't really healed from that relationship moving forward it's more likely you know that the next relationship can end the same way that makes sense taking time to really heal from a relationship is important before jumping into another one and letting the kids readjust is just as important, so hopefully our listeners have benefited from your words and we wish you all the best. Thanks for tuning in.
In this episode, co-hosts Jaimie, Chelsea, and Dr. Gordon explore overcoming the emotional challenges of infidelity after divorce or separation. They offer practical advice on self-care, maintaining a healthy relationship with your children, and resisting the urge to use them in conflicts with your ex-partner. Dr. Gordon emphasizes the importance of personal healing before entering new relationships and avoiding parental alienation. Tune in for insights on how to move forward and provide stability for your family.
S2:E6: Benefits of the Children in Between Program
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 6
“Benefits of the Children in Between Program”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie and today we're going to go over some of the benefits of taking our children in between online class and the skills taught in the program. So I'm here again with my colleague Chelsea and our executive director Dr. Don Gordon. For those who may not know about our program, Children in Between Online, it's a program for divorcing or separating parents who have children and the class itself takes about four hours and can be done completely online. It's self-paced, so you can log in and out as needed to complete it. And it teaches many skills on how to co-parent while keeping children out of the middle of conflict. And it also teaches proven methods to reduce stress. So, before we bring on Dr. Don, what benefits can you think of Chelsea after taking our program?
>> Chelsea: Divorce and separation can be life-altering for parents, but also for their children, if not handled properly. But I would really think the biggest benefit is to help prevent or decrease that conflict with skills like “I messages” or “active listening.”
>> Jaimie: So an “I message,” just in case that is new for any of our listeners, is a statement about how something makes you feel. So for example, I feel upset when the kids come home from your house and haven't done any homework. Instead of saying, "You never do homework with the kids." It's just an easier way of getting your point across without attacking the other person, right? So, the skills like these are taught throughout the program, and you're right, they are all helpful in learning how to help resolve conflict while keeping the kids out of the middle of it. And we know better than most when a parent is told that they have to take a parenting class, that they don't usually want to or feel like they need to, but we do have hundreds of parents who actually thank us after taking the program and say how helpful it was.
>> Chelsea: Very true. We have a lot of parents who've actually said that they wish they would have taken the class either before they got married or before they got divorced because it could have saved their marriage.
>> Jaimie: You know, Dr. Don put years into creating the program and countless studies to really make sure that it was effective as well. So we have updated it and really tried to make the class as relatable as possible for parents for a reason. And we know that no one wants to take a parenting class, but at the end of the day, the feedback we've gotten from parents who took the program is really amazing sometimes. So all right, let's go ahead and bring on the expert and creator of the program here, Dr. Don, and he can give a little more in-depth information on the studies done and evidence of the class and some of the benefits of taking the class and the skills he put in the program. Dr. Don, you want to share with us what you think is the most beneficial part of the Children in Between class?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Yes. Right away, the largest benefit is decreasing the conflict and tension in the family. Parental conflict goes down after the parents learn the skills and use the skills that are taught in the program. And some research has shown that when we measure children's stress, we find there's a 22% reduction in children's stress. There's 70% fewer school absences, which is an under indication of stress, and 54% fewer doctors visits. And it's said that a lot of the doctor visits that children experience are stress related.
>> Jaimie: Can you tell us why you focused on loyalty conflicts and what is a loyalty conflict?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: A loyalty conflict is when a child can't be loyal to both parents at the same time or equally. They have to show a preference for one versus the other and they have to choose. And other researchers and psychologists have identified loyalty conflicts as the most damaging part of divorce. And parents usually are not aware that they're putting children into loyalty conflicts because they do them in often subtle ways. For instance, asking the children to carry messages to the other parent or criticizing the other parent or criticizing how the other parents spends money or saying negative things about the other parent's character. Since the child identifies with both parents, a criticism of the other parent the child will often apply to themselves. So what we were surprised to find out, is when you point out the different ways parents are involving their children in loyalty conflicts that they quickly change that because they're not trying to hurt their children. They just simply didn't know they were doing it. Once they're aware they're doing it, then they can stop doing it.
>> Jaimie: What are the benefits to parents themselves then from taking the program?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Well, they experience less stress. And that's important because the divorce is the second most stressful event that a person can go through in their lifetimes, the first being death of a spouse. And they learn about neuroscience. They learn how their brains are wired to react to a perceived threat, and they go into a fight or flight mode. When they're in the fight or flight mode, they simply can't show sensitivity or take the point of view of the other parent, or of the child. They're simply either running or fighting back or freezing. The brain is supposed to do that, supposed to save us when we're into a life-threatening situation. But most of the situations in divorce are not life-threatening, but nonetheless the brains react that way. Parents love hearing about that. They didn't know about it. They can use that information to calm themselves down. We teach them methods for calming themselves down when they're about to go into or are into fight or flight mode.
We also know that they go to court less often, and that saves them money, time, and stress. They learn how to cooperate with their co-parent when it seems unlikely or impossible to do that. A lot of times parents refuse to talk to each other and they find out that they can learn some communication skills that allow them to talk to each other. And they also learn about their children's feelings about the family breakup. So they're able to be supportive. Quite often kids don't have the emotional vocabulary to tell their parents how they're feeling about the breakup. And so the parents may not know or may assume the kids are resilient. They're doing fine. And so in this program, they learn about what the kids are experiencing. And they see kids speaking in the program, clues them into what their children are experiencing. So they can learn to emotionally attune to the kids. And it's necessary for the children to be, to have their parents emotionally attuned to them so they can feel loved and understood and cared for.
>> Jaimie: Can you tell us a little bit about the studies that were done on the program?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Yeah, we compared parents who took the program, the parents who didn't take the program and found that the ones who did take the program were less than half as likely to go back to court, to re-litigate. So they were able to use the skills and not go back to court as often. And we found that the research shows that compared to in-person programs, Children in Between was more effective than in-person programs and there's a lot of reasons for that. Children in Between has very strong instructional design so that the parents will remember and use the skills that they're taught. We think there's not much use in giving parents a program that they're not going to remember the material and the way most programs are structured, it doesn't help parents memory. There are very few programs that have a very strong instructional design and we recently did a study on that and presented on that at a national conference. We also did research to show that parents experience less stress when they use the program compared to not using the program. There are also fewer conflicts that parents had with each other about pickups and drop-offs, and there's less conflict over access to the children because both parents start supporting the child's relationship with the other parent, even though they don't like the other parent. And both parents tend to become more involved with the kids after the divorce.
>> Jaimie: We do know that the program has proven to be effective for both the parents and children. So we also now know that nine out of 10 parents who take the class say they would recommend it to other parents as well. So, hopefully, if any of you listeners have someone you may know that is going through a divorce or separation or has, you now have a resource for them. So, once again, thank you, Dr. Don. We appreciate you all for tuning in, and we'll see you on the next episode.
Explore how the Children in Between online program helps divorcing or separating parents reduce conflict and stress while improving co-parenting skills. Dr. Donald Gordon highlights the importance of effective communication, reducing loyalty conflicts, and supporting children during family transitions. With proven methods like "I" messages and active listening, parents can foster healthier relationships with their co-parent and children. Discover how this program is designed to lower stress, decrease court visits, and create a more stable environment for families.
S2:E7: Navigating Social Media and Technology Across Two Households
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 7
“Navigating Social Media and Technology Across Two Households”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents and I'm Jaimie and I'm here with my colleague Chelsea and our executive director, Dr. Don Gordon. So today we're diving into a topic that affects nearly every family, screen time and social media. So in this episode, we'll explore practical strategies to help co-parents work together to set healthy screen time limits, encourage offline activities, and guide children in navigating the digital world safely. So Chelsea, why does screen time matter so much?
>> Chelsea: Well, it's proven that excessive screen time can disrupt children's sleep, reduce physical activity, and impair the development of social skills, which may lead to obesity and hinder emotional intelligence. It also negatively impacts academic performance and increases the risk of mental health issues, like anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem, especially through social media exposure. So that's why it's crucial that parents are managing their children's screen time.
>> Jaimie: According to the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, children under 18 months old, screen time should be limited to just video chatting along with an adult. Children between 18 and 24 months screen time should be limited to watching educational programming with a caregiver only. For children aged two to five, limit non-educational screen time to about an hour per weekday or three hours on the weekends. So for ages six and older, encourage healthy habits and limit activities that include screens. And that obviously is gonna be dependent on the children themselves. And one of the most terrifying side effects to me comes from social media. When children are using screens, they're often on social media like TikTok or Instagram. And that really does open them up to cyberbullying, inappropriate content, unhealthy comparisons. Pew Research Center has found that 23% of teens feel worse about their own life after seeing content on social media, with girls more likely than boys to experience negative feelings.
>> Chelsea: Well, for me, I especially worry about younger children in their games. Parents forget to monitor the games because it's such an effective way to catch a break as a parent, we almost don't wanna know. But my seven year old, he plays Fortnite, Roblox and Rec Room mostly. And one day, I heard voices of grown men coming from his game and I about lost it. I placed parental controls on everything immediately. What exactly did you do? Like what parental controls? So I did a few things. Number one is I used a family sharing feature to set his iPhone to where he has to request my permission to download games through my phone. And I also added age restrictions on his phone and on his apps. And then I also added restrictions on his microphone and chat setting inside of the games, which is an easy setting to miss.
>> Jaimie: The power of the internet in the hands of an innocent child can be really scary.
>> Chelsea: It took some getting used to, but my son eventually adjusted his behavior, which was an enormous issue at home and at school. He took a massive turn for the better. I felt less guilty too for no longer using it as a crutch at his expense. And now I use his screen time with approved apps as an incentive to behave well at school. His teacher gives out tickets for good behavior in class. No ticket, no phone, no discussion.
>> Jaimie: Wow, that's smart. Yeah, enforcing rules and boundaries like that can be a really big challenge, especially when co -parenting. You know, particularly when one parent has regulations on screen time and social media and the other doesn't. So Dr. Don, what are your thoughts on managing screen time and social media uses between two homes?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Okay, since managing screen time is such an important issue and there's lots of risks having unsupervised screen time, it's very important that the parents be able to cooperate together to be able to manage this having similar policies. So having open communication which reduces their conflict and can help them cooperate, and the skills taught in our program such as active listening where they listen to what the other parent is saying and that's a real important skill and also “I messages,” where they state their feelings about what the other parent is doing without blaming them or attacking them. So those are really good skills that will help them learn how to manage this social media together. Kids will often try to divide and conquer their parents trying to get one parent to give them permission to do things the other parent doesn't allow, and that's just normal for kids to do that. So all the more reason for parents to cooperate and have similar standards.
Another skill that parents can use is self-talk. Before they have a conversation with their co-parent, they might talk about what their goals are to themselves. When both of the parents are using the same policies, like rules like no screen time during dinner or before doing homework or right before bedtime, the children will be more likely to adjust to it. It's really easy to let screens be a babysitter for kids, and we all do that, and I've done that with my grandchildren, and it's really tempting because they're really enjoying it so much, and you can be doing other things. So by being more involved with them and supervising them, it takes more of your time. So it takes commitment and effort. It also sends a message to your children that you really care about them.
>> Jaimie: So basically do have an open discussion with your co-parent about social media or screen time and come up with a rule that works for both households. Do you have any advice on how parents should approach these issues?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Yeah, they can agree on some consistent rules, set up similar boundaries, as I just mentioned, screen free zones, time limits, using apps that help track and limit screen time and the parents should share that information when they discover it. Create a digital schedule so you establish a shared screen time schedule with clear time slots for schoolwork, entertainment, and family time. Also to encourage activities that don't involve screens like talking to their friends on the phone, getting together with their friends on the phone, playing outside, reading, playing games with the family. Try to promote hobbies that don't involve screens such as sports and drawing or doing puzzles or playing games as I mentioned, and arranging for more direct contact like play dates between your kids and their friends.
It's also important to use parental controls, to monitor social media activity and to restrict access to inappropriate content and the privacy settings for your child's accounts. And then setting a good example is important, like monitor your own screen use. If you're on your phone all the time looking at the screen, but you're telling your children they need to limit it, that's a conflicting message. It's good for you to show healthy screen habits and it's probably going to help you too because the algorithms to keep our eyes on screens are very sophisticated and give us what we like and it's really hard to break away from the screen so it really showing some self -control yourself will be a good example for your kids.
>> Jaimie: Also according to Pew Research Center 80 % of teens report feeling more connected to their friends through social media. But this constant connection also leads to feelings of social isolation for some of them. So any tips on getting older kids on board with making these changes?
>> Dr. Donald Gordon: Do some research yourself and learn about these sophisticated algorithms that keep all of us, our eyes glued to our screens. And having a family meeting where you talk to your teens and preteens about the reasons why corporations have developed this. It's so that they will get to know you really well so they can send ads your way that are likely to be very closely aligned with your interests. So it's all about selling you products. And the more time you're spending on the screen, the more information you're giving these corporations about your preferences. So it's easier to tempt you with the things that you want. So you as a parent can unite with your teens to kind of like defeat this intention. So it's good to involve your kids in discussions about this and the reasons for the limitations and to use age appropriate language and talk about the importance of balancing screen time and social media with expectations in the real world.
>> Jaimie: Right. I think this was an important subject for many parents to hear about. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast. And if you're eager to dive deeper into strategies for managing screen time, be sure to check out season two, episode three, where we explore the conversation further. Thanks for listening.
In this episode, Dr. Gordon addresses how co-parents can manage technology and social media between two households, offering practical strategies to protect children’s development. Discover how excessive screen use can impact sleep, social skills, and mental health, and learn how to set consistent boundaries and encourage offline activities. Dr. Gordon highlights the importance of cooperation, open communication, and creating a healthier digital environment for children, no matter which home they’re in.
S2:E8: Keeping Kids Out of the Middle
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 8
“Navigating Social Media and Technology Across Two Households”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by the Center for Divorce Education. We provide online parenting classes for divorcing and separating parents. I'm Jaimie and I'm here with my colleague Chelsea today to discuss some very common issues between co-parents, which are putting the other parent down or questioning your children about the other parent. So we do get a lot of parent feedback from our courses asking about how to handle these situations. Chelsea, do you want to start us off?
>> Chelsea: Sure. So obviously it's a challenge to avoid voicing our opinion about our co-parent when something comes up that upsets us. It's natural to make snide comments and vent, especially in the heat of the moment. But specifically when we're speaking to our children, it's important that we prioritize them by biting our tongue. While it may be tricky, what's our top rule as parents?
>> Jaimie: Put your child first.
>> Chelsea: Exactly. So when you put down the other parent, you may make your child feel like they're in the middle. Whether you like it or not, it's a fact. Your child identifies with both parents. So you're essentially putting half of your child down at the same time, which creates a very deep wound inside of them that they could end up spending their entire adulthood stuck healing.
>> Jaimie: And a lot of parents don't realize that or sometimes don't even realize they're putting the other parent down. And another common one is when the child is put in the middle by parents not wanting to talk to each other. So this is one of the first scenes from our Children in Between Online program where the parents aren't talking so they use their son as a messenger for telling mom or dad that he needs his skates back or that dad will be dropping him off later at mom's. So instead of the parents discussing these matters they have their son call the other parent to tell them and then badmouth that parent when the response isn't favorable.
>> Chelsea: There's a scene in CIBO and High Conflict Solutions that breaks my heart. It's when there's a little boy who comes home to his dad's house and mom insisted to her son on him getting his dad to provide extra money to help pay for a field trip. Dad is bad-mouthing mom venting about how he already pays enough in child support and so they end up having a phone conversation where their son can hear. And then mom starts going off on dad's new girlfriend, and it's just so toxic. I think co-parents will feel frustrated with one another, sometimes rightfully so, but instead of confronting the issue with healthy communication, they avoid one another until they can't anymore and their children are who end up paying the price.
>> Jaimie: Exactly. There is no good excuse for that behavior. Putting your child in the middle of your conflict by not being able to talk kindly about the other parent or just not talking about them at all is hurtful to the child. You know, kids should always feel like they can love both parents regardless of what has happened. The child is what is important and how they feel about their parents and in return about themselves, right?
>> Chelsea: Agreed. I can say the largest reason I can genuinely advocate for these parenting classes is because parents will too often end up separating because of communication issues. And those problems don't just magically go away post separation. In a lot of cases, parents just end up transferring the drama and nonsense they got tired of in the first place to their children. And our classes offer both parents basic and advanced communication skills so they can at least learn how to communicate as co-parents for the sake of their kids and be on the same page.
>> Jaimie: So let's talk about questioning the other parent. You know, it can be hard as a parent to not wonder about what goes on at the other parent's house, but questioning your kid on things like mom or dad's new relationship or finances are not appropriate for your child to have to explain. It puts the kid in a loyalty bind between mom and dad where they feel like they may get in trouble with one parent or the other for saying something.
>> Chelsea: Yeah, unfortunately it's more common than some may think. What it boils down to is the only things that are appropriate to discuss regarding your co-parent's parenting time are things pertaining to safety, school, doctors visits, or the child's general well-being. Boundaries are essential and it takes time to master but it's always best to err on the side of caution when what's at stake is your child's mental health and development. And I know that it's easier said than done, especially when there's anger or hurt between the parents, but you have to learn to know when to step back and admit that it's not your business anymore.
>> Jaimie: And I think the message Children in Between sends is that the biggest thing to remember is how the child feels and what position you're putting them in when you ask them personal questions about the other parent, like what they talk about or who they're seeing. And usually that is the number one thing that comes up in these situations. The other parent's a new partner or who they're seeing. And obviously it is important to feel like your child is safe and to know that they're around good people. But that is something that should be discussed between the parents and not the child.
>> Chelsea: Kids should never have to feel like they'll get in trouble or create an issue when discussing the other half of their life. Because what will happen is they'll learn to withhold information out of fear of their parents' reaction. And because they're blaming themselves in a way, right? And that's a surefire way to create a wall in your relationship with your child. Our parenting classes teach a skill called active listening, which in this type of situation could look like the other parent told them they could watch TV, knowing full well that they were grounded at your house. This is not an invitation for you to vent or make comments about the other parent. It's not our children's responsibility to hold onto our emotions for us. Instead, you can use active listening and you can respond with affirmations that supports your child's feelings about the situation instead of interrogating them. Then obviously there's an adult conversation to be had between the co-parents.
>> Jaimie: Basically, in order to have a healthy co-parenting relationship, it is really important that you discuss and share things that are important for the other parent to know, while keeping your child out of the middle, obviously. So children deserve to know that they're safe, where they will be living and when, and that they're loved. Everything else should be discussed between the parents. And we really didn't cover much here on how to deal with the other parent doing things like putting you down or questioning what you do because in those situations the only real thing that you can do is not do it yourself.
>> Chelsea: Handling situations like that can feel complicated but it's actually pretty straightforward. Communicate your boundaries and hold them. Anytime the topic gets off your children bring it back on track. Be the adult. Treat your co-parent like a business partner and that also helps, especially if the co-parenting relationship isn't civil yet.
>> Jaimie: To our listeners, if you would like to see scenes from our classes and learn more about the skills we're discussing, you can visit our website at divorce-education.com or check out our social media for more insight. We hope that this information was helpful and we thank you all for joining us today. See you next time.
In this episode, we tackle the common challenges co-parents face when emotions run high—putting down the other parent and questioning children about the other household. We offer strategies to prevent children from being caught in the middle of parental conflict, emphasizing the importance of positive communication and setting boundaries. Learn how to prioritize your child’s well-being, foster open communication between co-parents, and avoid loyalty conflicts that can harm your child’s emotional development.
S2:E9: Why Instructional Design Matters for Co-Parenting Programs
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 10
“Why Instructional Design Matters for Co-Parenting Programs”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute legal advice. Participants are encouraged to discuss specific legal questions with a licensed attorney of their choice.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast by The Center for Divorce Education. I'm Jaimie and today we're diving into how research and instructional design principles can help shape more effective co-parenting programs. I'm here with our Executive Director, Dr. Don Gordon, and our Operations Manager, Mike Eubanks, who has a Master's of Education and handles most of our day-to-day program developments. Dr. Don, could you explain why instructional design is so critical for online co-parenting programs?
>> Dr. Don Gordon: I think we have to ask ourselves, “What's the reason that courts are requiring parents to take co-parenting programs?” Assuming that by taking a co-parenting program, that's gonna help them deal with the stresses of divorce and deal better with that than if they didn't have the program. But when you dive into it, how the course is designed is critical because if the material isn't memorable, people can't remember it, then they can't use it. And if you ask judges, would you order parents to take a class where the information was not used and they would say no, what's the point? But unfortunately when you look at the instructional design of most of the co-parenting classes out there, it's really weak and we'll get into some of the details about why. But our view is that if you're gonna have parents take a class, the course should be designed in a way that the information is going to be remembered, that they're not going to forget about it within a day of taking the class, and that they can then use that information. And we use a skills-based approach, so we're teaching specific skills, so when they finish the course, they have skills that they didn't have before to deal with themselves, their own stress, with their co-parent and with their children. And these skills are critical and the program being useful to them.
We know that programs that have weak instructional designs don’t show that there's any benefit for the people taking them. There's no research showing that there's a benefit. They often will - parents will say that they liked the course - they're glad they took the course - because they're hearing information they didn't know. There's a lot of good information. But the problem with that, let's take a typical four-hour class where parents attend in-person. They're having a four-hour lecture, and in that four-hour lecture there's a lot of information, but then a day or two later, unless that's presented in a way that's going to help them remember it, it's gone; and if you can think about yourselves - when you've gone to a really interesting presentation - this lasted several hours and you thought this is really good stuff and then ask yourself several days later, “How much do you remember?” My own experience is very little; unless I took detailed notes and went over the notes, I remember very little about the program.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right, and that's just like, you know, you go to college classes and you sit there and listen to the instructor, you know, presenting the information, and later on, a week later, you learn something new and you totally forgot.
>> Dr. Don Gordon: Yes, it's gone. So it's, you know, in college, at least you're, you're studying the notes that you took in class and you're studying to try to keep that information fresh. But parents attending co-parenting classes, they're not, the majority of them, are not taking notes and not studying them after the class is over.
John Medina wrote a book called Brain Rules. He's a molecular biologist at University of Washington. And he talked about the way the brain works and how it helps people retain information in their memory. Some of the things that he says: it helps you remember something if you can relate - if there's an emotional hook. If you can relate to it emotionally and personally, then it's easier for you to remember it because you have a personal relationship to it. Another thing he talks about is that in order to keep your attention when somebody's talking to you and you're reading something, you can pay attention for about 10 minutes and then your attention wanders. So you have to produce a brain shift, which means you have to have your brain do something else other than listen. Like try to find a piece in a puzzle or look at an interesting design or hear a funny joke. And then you can go back and give somebody another 10 minutes where they can maintain their attention. Medina talks about brain shift and talks about the, you know, after 10 minutes we need to shift the attention and we need to be able to repeat the information. In our case, the skills we're teaching and skills need to be repeated at least four or five times during the program for people to have a chance of remembering. The majority of co-parenting programs out there do not teach skills. And the few that do teach skills, they might mention the skill once or twice, not four or five or six times. So, the repetition is really key to remembering. And you'll hear ads on the radio all the time when they tell you a phone number. They repeat the phone number three times because they know about this. That's why they're doing it. But unfortunately in the co-parenting classes, the information is good, but it's not repeated so people don't hold on to it.
When you look at the application of the principles and brain rules to courses that are offered, it's pretty discouraging that there's not much evidence that the person that designed the course knew anything about instructional design. And if you look at Zoom classes in particular, where parents or looking at a computer screen for four hours - you've all been on Zoom classes - and you can be appearing to the instructor to be paying attention because your eyes are looking at the screen. But the instructor doesn't know what's on the screen. You can be on different websites. You can be doing all sorts of different things and no one knows. And since classes don't offer quizzes to quiz you on what you're learning, there's no motivation to pay attention. You just have to show up and register and then you get credit.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Well, that is really great information to have for parents or professionals that are looking at parenting classes. You know, it is important to do brain shifts and to have the information be interesting enough to have the users engaged in it. So, Mike, could you start by introducing our listeners to Gagné's Nine Events of Instruction and how they relate to learning design?
>> Mike Eubanks: Yeah, no problem. So Robert Gagné was an educational psychologist and in 1965, he actually created what he called the Nine Events of Instruction. And it's basically an instructional design model. And he developed this after he was observing thought processes of adults when they were presented with new mental challenges. And so the model focused on “how are these folks going to be able to achieve learning goals?” And then he created instructional events to help them reach that, help them obtain that
I'll briefly explain the nine events and then maybe give you some examples of how we use those in our courses. So, one is to “gain attention” of the students. You have to present a stimulus to grab their attention right off the bat. Number two is "informing students of the objectives." So you want to actually tell the students what are the outcomes for this course. In individual lessons - what is our goal here? What is our objective of this whole thing? You want the students to know that before you start any instruction. So, three is “stimulate recall of prior learning.” So what you wanna do as much as possible is relate the new things that you're teaching to something that that person has already either experienced or already knows. So it's gonna be easier for them to grab these new pieces of information if you relate it to stuff that they already know.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right, that makes sense, okay.
>> Mike Eubanks: And then finally, number four is actually “present the instruction,” right? Present the content. So there's some prep involved before you just jump right in. You know, presenting content's the fourth step. It's not the first step.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Yeah, wow.
>> Mike Eubanks: And when you do that, you actually wanna make sure that you're organized and you're grouping content in meaningful ways. Doesn't seem random, you're not jumping around. There's a good sequence of that learning of that new material.
Then number five, which is a big one for us that I'll talk about is “provide learning guidance.” Okay? So, along with the new material, you want to give the students strategies so that they can learn this new content and what resources are available. You're giving them guidance on how to absorb and what to look for in these new - in our case, new skills, right? But also, new information that you're giving them.
Number six is another important one which is “illicit performance” and that's just a fancy way of saying practice. So you want to have students actually apply what they've learned to reinforce these new skills to make sure that they're understanding these new concepts. And we have practice exercises in all of our programs to give them that little bit of practice before they kind of go out in the real world and try these things.
Number seven, “provide feedback.” So you always want to give timely feedback of their performance to see how they're doing as they go. And this is before you're testing anything, right? You want to give feedback, give them those chances to try things. You know, it's kind of part of the practice is, practice tests or different things where they're trying these new skills and trying to identify these new things that they're learning.
Then you can finally, number eight, “assess performance” - testing. So yeah, test whether they have met those outcomes that you talk about in the very beginning. Like, here's what we're trying to do. Let's go through all these steps and then now we're going to test you on that. Did you get it? Did you understand all of these new skills and the new information that we gave?
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right.
>> Mike Eubanks: And then finally, the last thing and a really important one - and this goes to what Dr. Don was talking about the repetition is - “enhancing retention and transfer.” So you want to provide as many opportunities as you can to connect what they're learning to real world things. How can we make sure that parents are taking these skills with them after they've finished the course?
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right. Yeah.
>> Mike Eubanks: So in a nutshell, those are the Nine Events of Instruction that Gagné developed. And it's important to know that there's not just one correct way to do all of these steps. You know, there are many different ways to achieve these, but you want to really make sure when you're designing instruction - this is not just for co-parenting, this is for any instruction that you're designing for anyone - you want to try to make sure you're hitting each one of these events to really maximize.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: At some point.
>> Mike Eubanks: Yeah, to really maximize, you know, the learning. If you can hit all these points, you're going to have much better outcomes from your instruction than if you just ignore this and try to come up with something without any kind of framework. This is an instructional design framework to use.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right. Instead of just throwing out information and hoping that it sticks, you know.
>> Mike Eubanks: Right, yes.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Yeah, that's really interesting. How are Gagné's Nine Events used in the instructional design of the Children in Between and High Conflict Solutions programs?
>> Mike Eubanks: So I'll give you a couple of examples. One, let's talk about “gain attention,” right? That's the first step. So how do we do that? Again, there's more than one way to do this, but how do we gain attention? Like Dr. Don said, the emotional hook. So we use an emotional hook to get parents engaged. We wanna make sure that our scenarios and the lessons in our courses are personally relevant to the folks taking the class. So all of the scenarios in our courses are the most common problems that co-parents see in those co-parent interactions and relationships. So if parents are seeing themselves and their own family in those scenarios, they're much more likely to actually engage with the course and remember those lessons later on. So we use that, an emotional hook to gain attention.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right. And you're referring to the video content, right?
>> Mike Eubanks: Yes. Those video scenarios are all based on, you know, Dr. Don's research of what are the common problems that always come up in co-parenting situations, right? Money problems, carrying messages, putting down the other parent. Almost every co-parent relationship sees one of those at some point in their journey, right?
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Exactly.
>> Mike Eubanks: So we wanna make these lessons personally relevant to the people taking the class. And then just another example, we talked about providing guidance, right? We do something that I've never seen any other class do and it's what we call guided questions. After each video clip, we go through a set of study questions where we're presenting the question to the parent. And there's a pause or they have to click a button. We want them to actually think through that question from the video they just watched, but then we actually give them the answer, right? So we want them to at least think about it for a minute first, see if they can come up with it, then give them the answer. And so this helps parents take away the most relevant parts of the lessons. It directs attention to the new skills that are being taught. A lot of these communication skills are brand new to all of these parents taking this. We want to guide them through this as much as we can to pick up the nuances of how to craft an “I message.” How do I actually engage in active listening? We repeat these skills over and over and over again throughout the course to give them that repetition, but then we also use these guided questions to walk them through, to guide them through these new skills.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right, right, that's somewhat like flash cards almost.
>> Mike Eubanks: Very much so, yes, very much so. We're guiding them to the points we want them to catch in these video scenarios. What skill did mom use here That really helped that interaction come out better. Okay, let's work through that to make sure that you caught that. So we do that all throughout our courses. We have these guided questions that are leading the parent to the right answer You know, we're not this is not a test yet. We're still providing them guidance on how to pick out those new skills out of the videos. And so then hopefully they'll remember them and then they will actually try to incorporate that into their interactions in real life. That's the idea. That leads to that transfer, that retention and transfer into real life.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: You know, obviously instructional design is crucial in making co-parenting programs effective.
>> Mike Eubanks: All instruction. Any instruction. Not just co-parenting. There are more models. This is not the only one, but this is a great kind of tried and true, and has been used so many times to create effective instruction. So when courts are looking, when attorneys are looking, even when parents are looking for a class, look for the instructional design. Did they use an instructional design model to come up with this, or did somebody just make a PowerPoint and throw it online?
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right, exactly. Look for something that will actually benefit you in the long run and not just a PowerPoint presentation that you'll forget in 20 days. So yeah, I would say it's clear from today's conversation that a well-designed co-parenting program can make all the difference for families going through separation or divorce. So thank you, Mike and Dr. Don for your expertise here and thank you to our listeners for tuning in. Until next time.
In this episode, Jaimie talks with Dr. Don Gordon and Mike Eubanks, M.Ed., about the crucial role instructional design plays in making co-parenting programs effective and memorable. Dr. Gordon discusses how engaging parents emotionally, using brain shifts, and repeating key concepts help ensure lasting retention of skills. Mike Eubanks introduces Gagne’s Nine Events of Instruction, explaining how each step—from gaining attention to enhancing retention—supports parents in absorbing and applying essential co-parenting skills. Join us to discover why a well-designed co-parenting program can make all the difference for families navigating separation.
S2:E10: Creating Holiday Parenting Plans that Work for Everyone
Transcript of the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, Season 2, Episode 10
“Creating Holiday Parenting Plans that Work for Everyone”
>> Introduction: Welcome to the Co-Parenting Conversations podcast, brought to you by the Center for Divorce Education. With renowned psychologist, Dr. Donald Gordon, we will delve into the complex world of co -parenting during and after divorce and separation.
Join us as we explore some of the emotional, legal and practical aspects of parental breakups, helping you navigate this transformative journey with wisdom and guidance. Whether you're currently going through a divorce, contemplating separation, or supporting a loved one in their journey, the Center for Divorce Education is here to empower you with knowledge and offer you a roadmap towards a brighter future.
The information presented in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only. The presentation of this material is not intended to constitute mental health therapy or to diagnose mental health disorders.
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>> Jaimie MacArthur: Welcome back to the Co-Parenting Conversations Podcast, where we provide guidance for parents navigating the challenges of co-parenting. I'm Jamie and today we're discussing how to create holiday plans that work for both parents and, most importantly, for the children. The holiday season can be a time of joy, but for families going through divorce or separation, it can also be a time of stress. So our goal today is to help families find harmony by planning ahead and reducing conflict. We have Chelsea here today who will share tips for organizing holiday parenting plans, and Dr. Don, a child psychologist and co-parenting expert, who will provide insights on how holiday changes affect children emotionally. We'll also be referencing resources from The Center for Divorce Education, specifically the Children in Between Online course, which helps families manage conflicts and build effective co-parenting strategies. So let's start by hearing from Chelsea, who will give us some practical tips for holiday co-parenting plans.
>> Chelsea Murry: When parents separate, it's critical to plan ahead for holidays. Many people don't realize just how important it is to have these plans clearly laid out in your parenting agreement. Whether you alternate years, split the day, or have one parent host certain holidays each year, the key is clear communication. If possible, plan months in advance, not just days before the holidays. This reduces misunderstandings and stress for everyone involved. It's worth noting that about 60% of all separations involve children. Every year, 1 million children experience their parents' breakup. That's why careful planning is so crucial. It's about minimizing disruption in children's lives. Listeners can actually visit divorce-education.com/resources and find a template for a parenting plan. There are hundreds of ideas for organizing the holidays in two homes. Stay reasonable and be sure to prioritize this portion of your plan. And I cannot emphasize this enough: focus on the quality of your child's experience. Jamie, you have some experience with co-parenting during the holidays. What has that been like for you?
>> Jaimie MacArthur: The first couple of holiday seasons were really tough. My ex and I weren't always on the same page. So that did make things stressful for everyone, and especially our kid. We eventually did realize that what mattered most was giving our son a stable and happy holiday experience. Even if that meant splitting time or alternating years sometimes. So I do remember the turning point for us was actually when we started to use some of the communication techniques from our Children in Between course, which we both took. So we did learn to communicate calmly and avoid putting our kid in the middle. And holidays are not about winning all the time, but about creating joyful memories for our children. And that's important because the reality is that nearly 50% of all marriages end in divorce and the impact of that is huge, especially during special times like the holidays. So what we've found works best is flexibility. Even if the schedule says one thing, you know, being willing to adjust for the children's sake can make all the difference. My son's dad and I have an agreement where I have my son on Christmas Eve and his dad gets him on Christmas, mostly because I grew up celebrating on Christmas Eve anyway. So it just worked out that way. But there have been a couple of years where we switched because his family was in town or something had changed and we would rather our son get to enjoy that time as much as possible instead of arguing over who should have the holiday and ruining that time for everyone, you know.
>> Chelsea Murry: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Instead of fighting over the time, make sure that you're just thinking about what might be the most enjoyable for the child and compromise when possible.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Let's go ahead and bring on Dr. Don to help us understand the emotional impact these holiday transitions can have on children. Dr. Don…
>> Dr. Don Gordon: One of the big factors is greater anxiety and stress. The holidays often bring anxiety and stress with them, as all of us have experienced. They don't live up to our expectations quite often. And so people are expecting a lot about get-togethers, like Thanksgiving, the Christmas holidays. They want things to go the way they remember them or the way they think they should be. For children, they're picking up on their parents' stress and anxiety about that. And they're also having their own anxiety because they want to be with both of their parents during these holidays because that's their tradition. And waking up, for instance, Christmas morning and going down to the tree and having mom and dad there - Mom and dad aren't there; just mom or just dad. So that's real stressful for the kids. And then they have intense loyalty conflicts that they feel like they've got to be loyal to each parent. And the parents can unintentionally make that worse by criticizing the other parent or using the child to carry messages because they don't want to talk to the other parent. Those loyalty conflicts can be greater because they can't be with both of those parents on these holidays. Their emotions are stronger and their feeling of sadness is stronger because they're missing one of their parents.
If Mom and Dad have different traditions at Christmas time, now that they're split, then they have to adjust to these different traditions. Quite often, the divorced parent is trying to start new traditions because the family has changed. And they also often feel like they're missing out by not being with the other parent and their relatives when they're getting together. For young children, to say “well, you weren’t with Dad this Christmas but next Christmas you will be,” that's a long time away. That's like an eternity for a young child. So that's not terribly reassuring. So what do you do about that? It helps to try to create predictable routines to let the child know what's going to be expected and what's going to happen to reduce their anxiety and try to stick to those routines. It's really important to reassure them and to have open communication with them and check in with them about how they're feeling. Instead of, if the child's reporting feeling sad or angry or confused, instead of trying to talk them out of those emotions, instead validate them. You know, repeat what you heard them say, let them know that it's okay to be having these feelings and that it's normal and parents can even share when they've had similar feelings. So the child knows that it's normal to have these feelings. If the child can label their own feelings, there's research that shows that that decreases their fight or flight response. If they can name their own feelings and they can deal with them more constructively than if they don't know what they're feeling.
>> Jaimie MacArthur: Right. And to go back to parenting plans, that is part of the reason that they do help is to make sure that there is a plan in place for holidays so that the children kind of know what to expect. That doesn't mean that it's permanent or that you can't have flexibility with those plans. You know, thank you so much, Dr. Don. So also to recap, setting clear and flexible holiday plans is essential for avoiding conflict and communicating effectively with your co-parent is key. And prioritizing your children's emotional needs will help the holiday season be more joyful for everyone. And whether you're a parent or a family law professional, there are many resources out there to help support you. And in fact, last year we did a podcast episode on co-parenting during the holidays as well. So you can check that out on our YouTube, Spotify, or website if you're interested in preparing yourself even more for the upcoming holidays. Thanks for joining us today, and we hope you have a peaceful and happy holiday season.
In this episode, we dive into the importance of creating clear holiday parenting plans for separated families. We give practical tips for structuring plans to minimize misunderstandings, and Dr. Gordon discusses how holiday transitions affect children emotionally. Learn strategies for setting flexible yet organized schedules, prioritizing your child’s well-being, and keeping open communication with your co-parent to ensure a peaceful holiday season. Whether you’re newly separated or looking to refine your approach, this episode provides guidance for a harmonious holiday experience.
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